2 M16 Camos on e stand

[90th Light]

However meyers first helmets compares a lot nore to this example here,

Hello again W

Well even I can see that this is a post-war repaint with either the totally wrong texture or painted over a previously rusted/ sand blasted helmet.

but note what I have previously stated about the careful painting of the segments and the attempt at copy of an existing camo. Typical of repaint for sure.

also note that it has no paint-runs what so ever. The paint has been carefully spread out and had time to settle thus drying even without brush marks.

Keep in mind that what they put in paint in the period of 1900 to 1930 such as lead was designed to make it dry faster plus pigment it but this could mean more brush marks & runs. Of course the Germans used the technique of bush marks on a WW1 helmet to matt it esp. in the 1917 period plus the type of brushes they used caused them as well.

Since the 1950's/ 60's they have developed new additives and paints which dry in a way to even out brush marks or let you paint a run back in to even it out. The German were finding out such things in the 30's & 40's. In fact it was often their discoveries which were taken and used by the victor nations after 1945.

Another thing, the German never had too much lead to spare for paint in the period 1916-18 so they had to come up with other drying elements & pigments which might in some cases dry even faster depending on what they were using. Lead was actually banned by them for household paint in 1926 because they were ahead in the development of other petro- chemicals which they could put in paint probably because of the necessity of their ersatz experiences in WW1 to camo helmets, vehicles, weapons, boats etc . (also ahead in "green enviroment" thinking by todays standards doing that so early on)

Personally this one is nothing like "Mayer's first helmet but I like the other original camos you have just shown images of,

Chris

[90th Light]

As well as the

BKA
BJA
BIA

I also should have included the "KBAG" which was the war time expanded unit to logistically provide the requirements of the Guard units including the distribution, repair and refurbishment of their helmets,

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,

What is wrong with you? We are discussing original WWI German wartime applied camo paint on a steel helmet.

Col. J's opening statement,

"The purpose of this site is to share information about Imperial German stuff and keep my own findings straight. I don't sell anything. I am no expert. I am a collector. I give several opinions a day on things. It is what it is an opinion and you get what you pay for. It is free. It might not be right, and I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. But it is a heck of a lot of fun. I have been told this site is like a gold mine -- true -- you have to dig around a lot to find anything of value. The article tabs continue to be the most heavily utilized part of this site." Click

Sorry, I'm done here...

Chuck

Hello Chuck, ok then lets sum it all up shall we and close off

The BKA got the helmets and the paint. Their job was to get them to the German troops.

The BJA & BIA carried out any repairs or replacement of parts. They are more than likey to also put a new paint job on the helmet if it needed it. (Would appear that frontline troops also painted the helmets in their charge at the time)

The KBAG carried out the same roles for guard units.

When the German line callapsed after March 1918 the allied soldiers advanced rapidly into German held territory and over-ran BKA depots.

In these depots and possibly later in warehouses in occupied Germany were found a variety of unissued helmets both new & used.

Some of these helmets were refurbished examples used previously and pressed back into service with a new camo paint job but others would still be field grey. There would also some Picklehaubes & other headgear plus all the other items these logistics units handled.

The paint (camo) on a depot helmet may not have had much use and if the helmet has been stored carefully since the war then it can still be in an impressive condition today.

Germany in 1918 was struggling to get enough paint in the right shades and started to use a wider range of paints, element, pigments and thiners.

"Mayer's" first camo helmet could be such a camo helmet but its leather liner has suffered from oiling or something like saddle oil which has taken its toll on the leather.

Read the articles on Colonel- J's site and not just the introduction. He did not write all the articles but has collected ones he thought would be of use & interest to collectors

He was right and it now raises a new level of awareness concerning the German distribution/ repair units and the supply of helmets to German soldiers in the periods before the war and the 1914 - 1916 period. Our challenge is now the 1916 - 1918 period and the role these units played in the camo of steel helmets.

As collectors we suffer badly from assuming too much and not researching enough but who knows what someone may now get on and find.

Take care,

Chris

[Hoss]

Camos

[QUOTE=C. Roelens;3773697]Chris,

What is wrong with you? We are discussing original WWI German wartime applied camo paint on a steel helmet.

Col. J's opening statement,

"The purpose of this site is to share information about Imperial German stuff and keep my own findings straight. I don't sell anything. I am no expert. I am a collector. I give several opinions a day on things. It is what it is an opinion and you get what you pay for. It is free. It might not be right, and I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. But it is a heck of a lot of fun. I have been told this site is like a gold mine -- true -- you have to dig around a lot to find anything of value. The article tabs continue to be the most heavily utilized part of this site." Click

Sorry, I'm done here...

Chuck,
Please dont go

Lord Above,
The Warren Commission is not a patch on this thread. Iam still trying to figure out who Gary Chamber is. Was he the second shooter?
Chris,
I thought we were discussing two helmets on e-stand? Friend I think you,ve strayed a little. Yes, Just a bit!!
Think about all the gentleman on this site and the collective knowledge and experience they have. Add it up. Hundreds of years of collecting. Most, if it all of us have ref: books or can spend some time on the computer looking for NEAT things to say.
How about a "Guys check this out" or "have you seen this?"
Please dont lecture fellow collectors or do you think we are all unworthy and just using our <Your Quote> "unscientific gut reactions"

Eric

[90th Light]

[QUOTE=704hoss55;3774098]

Chris,

What is wrong with you? We are discussing original WWI German wartime applied camo paint on a steel helmet.

Col. J's opening statement,

"The purpose of this site is to share information about Imperial German stuff and keep my own findings straight. I don't sell anything. I am no expert. I am a collector. I give several opinions a day on things. It is what it is an opinion and you get what you pay for. It is free. It might not be right, and I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. But it is a heck of a lot of fun. I have been told this site is like a gold mine -- true -- you have to dig around a lot to find anything of value. The article tabs continue to be the most heavily utilized part of this site." Click

Sorry, I'm done here...

Chuck,
Please dont go

Lord Above,
The Warren Commission is not a patch on this thread. Iam still trying to figure out who Gary Chamber is. Was he the second shooter?
Chris,
I thought we were discussing two helmets on e-stand? Friend I think you,ve strayed a little. Yes, Just a bit!!
Think about all the gentleman on this site and the collective knowledge and experience they have. Add it up. Hundreds of years of collecting. Most, if it all of us have ref: books or can spend some time on the computer looking for NEAT things to say.
How about a "Guys check this out" or "have you seen this?"
Please dont lecture fellow collectors or do you think we are all unworthy and just using our <Your Quote> "unscientific gut reactions"

Eric

No not at all Eric but one must always work out the pitch of the audience to whom one is going to deliver their material to.

Certainly gives me a feel for the ground before presenting more which I am sitting on and seeking permission to use.

Seems a shame if I have made a wrong call about "Mayer's" first helmet and I have no problem coming to grips with that at all. Everyone is learning and it would appear here that cracks of division occured and opinions became stronger at that point so maybe with the benefit of hindsight I should have waited longer before expressing mine. Interesting honesty emerged however of how Chuck had found the detail about the NZ experience tiresome which was not really a lot of help for me in asking a fellow collector, friend & author on New Zealand armed forces to use his research findings/ pictures about the NZ trophy committee capture of WW1 German helmets. I had asked him to follow this so not so good on that account. Still I am hoping he will come to the party however plus his working knowledge of what is in the official histories of the time is better than mine. He has always passed the German side to me and I the NZ side to him.

What is interesting is that there has been so far no detailed analysis and only implications as to why "Mayer's" helmet is a tourist model and very few contributing here have presented one bit information beyond their own subjective opinion, feelings or experience (credit to "W" however who is putting up images of helmets to compare with).

Maybe my style was not right in the first place and not enough "buddy/buddy like but at least I have tried to be objective and detailed in what I have presented so far,

Not every body who knows a lot about these helmets is prepared to post on this forum and if we are wise then that should be our aim to get those collectors involved here. There is still much for us all to learn about WW1 German camos, the "BKA" is a good example and "Belgium tourist" specials another .

All the best, Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Hello again W

Well even I can see that this is a post-war repaint with either the totally wrong texture or painted over a previously rusted/ sand blasted helmet.

but note what I have previously stated about the careful painting of the segments and the attempt at copy of an existing camo. Typical of repaint for sure.

also note that it has no paint-runs what so ever. The paint has been carefully spread out and had time to settle thus drying even without brush marks.

Keep in mind that what they put in paint in the period of 1900 to 1930 such as lead was designed to make it dry faster plus pigment it but this could mean more brush marks & runs. Of course the Germans used the technique of bush marks on a WW1 helmet to matt it esp. in the 1917 period plus the type of brushes they used caused them as well.

Since the 1950's/ 60's they have developed new additives and paints which dry in a way to even out brush marks or let you paint a run back in to even it out. The German were finding out such things in the 30's & 40's. In fact it was often their discoveries which were taken and used by the victor nations after 1945.

Another thing, the German never had too much lead to spare for paint in the period 1916-18 so they had to come up with other drying elements & pigments which might in some cases dry even faster depending on what they were using. Lead was actually banned by them for household paint in 1926 because they were ahead in the development of other petro- chemicals which they could put in paint probably because of the necessity of their ersatz experiences in WW1 to camo helmets, vehicles, weapons, boats etc . (also ahead in "green enviroment" thinking by todays standards doing that so early on)

Personally this one is nothing like "Mayer's first helmet but I like the other original camos you have just shown images of,

Chris

Hey Chris,

Yes of course the Austrian Helmet is a repaint. I posted it and the three originals to make a point. While you may be right to say the repaint looks nothing like Meyers Helmet the point in posting them was to show that Meyers Helmets looks more like my repaint then it does the three originals posted up.

As for that reaint I don't think it had much rust on it at all. It came to me off ebay painted some sort of battle ship gray, a spray paint job. Nothing much was under it and an auto body guy did all the work on it. I just gave him a pattern to copy. He lighty aged it.
I don't see how one can spot my repaint but fail to see Meyers as such. Ya it has more real age on it but not enough.

I am going to go over to the helmet forum and post a question to see just how rare un issued steel helmets are today from WWI.

W.

[90th Light]

Hey Chris,

Yes of course the Austrian Helmet is a repaint. I posted it and the three originals to make a point. While you may be right to say the repaint looks nothing like Meyers Helmet the point in posting them was to show that Meyers Helmets looks more like my repaint then it does the three originals posted up.

As for that reaint I don't think it had much rust on it at all. It came to me off ebay painted some sort of battle ship gray, a spray paint job. Nothing much was under it and an auto body guy did all the work on it. I just gave him a pattern to copy. He lighty aged it.
I don't see how one can spot my repaint but fail to see Meyers as such. Ya it has more real age on it but not enough.

I am going to go over to the helmet forum and post a question to see just how rare un issued steel helmets are today from WWI.

W.

Hello W or William I think

so it was the texture on your repaint plus the segments are very neat.

I have to be honest and say that there is still something about Meyer's first helmet that I like. Went and had a look at the "Show us your WW1 camo" thread and found one or two with those paint-runs and that texture but hey thats my opinion and I am not alone but have to agree that quite a few here disagree with me and they have their reasons. I can respect that and I am keen to know in more detail why they feel that.

What has surprised me however is how not many contributing to this thread have ever seen a helmet with little or no use after being refurbished and my point is that can happen but it is rare after 90+ years. Keep in mind that when I was really serious about getting WW1 camos 20 odd years ago there were more coming out of the woodwork from places like museums which no longer required them and the deceased estates of WW1 veterans. I literally saw & got some helmets which had not been touched since 1918, only stored carefully away. Sources such as that are very rare today and the WW1 vets have long gone.

When I enquired why some of these helmets where so good, I discovered some had come from the distribution by the New Zealand government in the 1920's hence how places like the museums & halls had got them plus some vets told me they got there out of an over-run German supply depots.

You have raised a good question however and one I had not thought of until now, who has an unissued or mint WW1 helmet either camo or field grey. May be we need to start a new thread along those lines.

Regards, Chris

[Adler 1]

Is this unissued enough Chris or does it have to be like brandnew?

Adler 1

[90th Light]

Is this unissued enough Chris or does it have to be like brandnew?

Adler 1

Wow Adler 1,

nice telephone M18. I have never ever been lucky enough to get one of them.

I would rate this excellent but not mint and to be honest this is as good as one can ever hope to find but I think what "W" is talking about is mint to mint & unissued.

Based on your image of the inside, that looks to be one nice helmet however.

Many thanks, Chris

[90th Light]

Is this unissued enough Chris or does it have to be like brandnew?

Adler 1

Hello again Adler 1,

I am running out of time today and ebony has to go but I have asked him to post a couple of quick images of my unissued depot helmet brought back by a New Zealand soldier from a BKA depot over-run in 1918.

This helmet was literally taken off the shelf and does not appear to have had any combat use or even had a string tied through the liner after repair.

Enjoy and again thanks for posting your inside shot of that very nice funker M18,

Chris

[ebony]

1

[ebony]

2

[Hans K.]

Interesting thread Gents. I'm not very keen on Meyer's first helmet, and the liner pads in the one you just posted bother me, ebony. The leather looks like pigskin. Any pictures of the reverse showing the pouches?

Hans

[Hans K.]

While we're on the subject of show and tell, here's one of the least abused looking helmets in my collection, a Thale size 66 M16.

[Hans K.]

...