2 M16 Camos on e stand

[Hans K.]

....

[C. Roelens]

Interesting thread Gents. I'm not very keen on Meyer's first helmet, and the liner pads in the one you just posted bother me, ebony. The leather looks like pigskin. Any pictures of the reverse showing the pouches?

Hans

Welcome back Hans. Damn nice helmet you show... having minimal wear if any, and, unquestionable!

Chuck

[90th Light]

Interesting thread Gents. I'm not very keen on Meyer's first helmet, and the liner pads in the one you just posted bother me, ebony. The leather looks like pigskin. Any pictures of the reverse showing the pouches?

Hans

Hello Hans,

yes there are markings on the back of the pouches showing that they are a replacement part from a depot plus some other details.

I am being careful not to show these at this stage plus ebony has had enough of taking pictures today.

The reason I am not yet showing the stamps on the back is because I do not want to give any potential fakers too much information. During the course of this thread I have had some very interesting PM's and emails from other collectors. One who also has a depot helmet has sent me images of his helmet and what is on the back of his pouches but suggested that I do not show this widely.

Seems the refurbished or unissued depot helmets are not very widely known but I put to all mambers reading this to have a look at what is stamped on the back of their helmet liners or on the inside of the pouches, Ever wonder why some have stamps but more often than not they do not have any.

The leather would certainly seem to be some sort of second grade leather like pig-skin but given the leather shortage in Germany in 1918 and the fact that they would have sources of pig skin still avaliable, I have no problem with that as a source of replacement parts at that time and have seen it used else where by them in a limited ersatz fashion. Look also at how thin & flimsey some of the vegetable tanned leathers have become by 1918 so this would be a good substitue. Keep in mind that Germany had to import alot of its better quality leather and was facing an effective allied blockade.

I have had this helmet for many, many years myself and have its full history back to the end of WW1 in 1918 hence I repeat, this was captured & taken from a "BKA" depot by advancing New Zealand soldiers in the later half of 1918 and its originality is not up for debate here. The reason for posting is to show all reading this what such a helmet looks like today after nearly 100 years.

Many thanks too for posting your helmet, that is one outstanding example of a WW1 German helmet as well and has had hardly any use. Lets hope we see more. In fact, I too also have a field grey example in amazing condition so may be I should dig that out too and post some images,

Chris

[Hans K.]

I've never seen liner pads like yours in a WW1 period helmet Chris. Have you - or anyone for that matter - any other examples comparable to it? Aside from some very scarce examples of ersatz oilcloth pads, I have consistently seen either the earlier vegetable tanned or the later chrome tanned (sheepskin) versions in period helmets, refurbished or not.

I'm unaware of any stamps applied to the leather pads during refurbishing at depots; I haven't yet seen this. How do these differ from maker marks?

My observations: Quite a few of the later sheepskin pads I've seen have had ink stamps applied by the manufacturer, in my experience more so than is the case with the earlier tan leather versions. Occasionally, even the M17/18 metal liner band is ink stamped with the maker mark (in this case the helmet maker).

Incuse stamped pads like the one shown below come up much less frequently, but seem to be more common on the tan pads. All three pads in this helmet (E.T. 60) are maker stamped and dated 1917.
Hans

[C. Roelens]

Hans,

I too have never seen liner pads such as those Chris just posted... they look "brand new". I surely don't have the answer to all questions here, but, I've been at this for almost 40 years. Surely, these examples he speaks of would have surfaced over this period of time.

Chuck

[Hans K.]

Hans,

I too have never seen liner pads such as those Chris just posted... they look "brand new". I surely don't have the answer to all questions here, but, I've been at this for almost 40 years. Surely, these examples he speaks of would have surfaced over this period of time.

Chuck

I have to agree with Chuck here. Chris, isn't it possible that there's a weak link in the chain of the helmet's history that leads back to it's capture?

[90th Light]

I've never seen liner pads like yours in a WW1 period helmet Chris. Have you - or anyone for that matter - any other examples comparable to it? Aside from some very scarce examples of ersatz oilcloth pads, I have consistently seen either the earlier vegetable tanned or the later chrome tanned (sheepskin) versions in period helmets, refurbished or not.

I'm unaware of any stamps applied to the leather pads during refurbishing at depots; I haven't yet seen this. How do these differ from maker marks?

My observations: Quite a few of the later sheepskin pads I've seen have had maker ink stamps applied by the manufacturer, in my experience more so than is the case with the earlier tan leather versions. Occasionally, even the M17/18 metal liner band is ink stamped with the maker mark (in this case the helmet maker).

Incuse stamped pads like the one shown below come up much less frequently, but seem to be more common on the tan pads. All three pads in this helmet (E.T. 60) are maker stamped and dated 1917.
Hans

Hello again Hans,

I have not had that many helmets at all in my time where the pads have had practically no use at all so of course it is like comparing brand new shoes with worn shoes verses extremely worn shoes, leather takes on a different look over time and use.

Also I am not sure exactly what type of grade two leather this is or how they have tanned it but to my eye it is grade two not grade one like quality vegetable tanned leather would be.

I do have a 1917 dated Pickelhaube with a liner made of this type leather, a belt can not read date and a 1918 dated pouch to hold driving/ flying goggles. May have more as it as been a while since I have had some of it out to look at.

Have got examples of the other types of leather pouches in my steel helmets to which you refer and agree they are the more common types

The Germans were also using goat leather in 1918 as well so who knows what the full range of possibilities could be.

I have never had or seen any the oilcloth pads to which you refer but do have one helmet with ersatz pads made out of the woven matting which I have also seen used in period German furniture of the time.

Do have helmets with all 3 of the stamp options to which you refer;

1/ Incise maker stamp and date into the leather on the front of the pouch as you show in your image

2/ Ink stamped on the rear of the pouch in an oval stamp or a square stamp

3/ Incise stamp and date on the leather band going round the circumference of the helmet to which helmets pouches holding the pads are sewn.

Have never seen a metal M17 circumference band holding the pouches with an ink stamp on it but it sounds interesting

The depot stamp has a "BA" reference but there is more to it than that.

I had not expected that my "depot helmet" dicussion would have caused such a debate but can understand it given that so many do not ever seem to have seen such a helmet which is understandable given it was nearly 100 years ago and how many of these have survived with almost no use what so ever.

Does seem important to me however to now share what I have picked up and I am also putting pressure on my friend to publish his research in this regard because the years are passing and hopefully this discussion might bring more out of the woodwork.

Best regards, Chris

[Hans K.]

Hello W,


Here an interesting question out of all of this; in a Pickelhaube you will get a "BA" number as well as maker, size & unit but in an M16, M17 steel helmet you often get an "R" or "B" number stamped into the metal inside the top of the helmet or you get a "AK" ink stamp on the rim. Ever wondered what that is all about and thought depot/ supply authority,

Chris

Chris, I just noticed this. I think you're much too focused on depots and supply authorities. Ludwig Baer's books are probably the best sources for detailed contemporary accounts explaining these various codes. The "R" and "B" along with the corresponding numbers stamped in the crown of the helmet are the steelworks codes (Roechlingen, Bischoff, etc.) along with the smelting lot numbers which recorded the quality of each of the steel ingots in case of any quality issues that could come up during the rolling and stamping process.

The 'AK'/shell size ink stamps had nothing to do with the Bekleidungsamt, but stood for the 'Abnahmekommando' inspection team, which consisted of a specially trained officer, an NCO and a few EMs. They inspected the helmets in-plant at the end of the manufacturing process (prior to the installation of the liners), not in some outside depot. Having this quality control group on site was vital as no flawed helmet was allowed to leave the plant.

To my knowledge, when a damaged helmet was repainted and refurbished, only the size stamp was applied to the inside rim of the helmet, never an AK mark.

Here's an example of a factory issue M18 with the inspection marks.

[Hans K.]

Here's what I'm used to seeing in a repainted helmet (not mine).
Hans

[90th Light]

I have to agree with Chuck here. Chris, isn't it possible that there's a weak link in the chain of the helmet's history that leads back to it's capture?

As always in these matters it is a case of judge the item not the story but to cut a long story short. It came out of a museum which decided many years ago that displaying war stuff was not politically correct and they wanted the room for other things.

Their official records showed it was placed in the museum collection in the 1920's and had come from via the New Zealand governments distribution of war trophies for public display from an over-run German depot in 1918 during the rapid advance of the New Zealand division in the last 100 days of WW1.

Seemingly even in the 1920's there had been a real pacifist concern because of the 105,000 New Zealand soldiers who served in WW1, 58% had been killed or wounded. The highest of any country per capita in the world in that war. Not many of the German captured items were ever put on display by that museum because of concern for grieving families at the time. Their area had had the highest participation rate overall in New Zealand.

Would appear this helmet was only ever kept in storage until such time that they decided it was no longer suitable for the museums collection at all along with several other very nice items.

Chris

[90th Light]

[QUOTE=Hans K.;3782863]Chris, I just noticed this. I think you're much too focused on depots and supply authorities. Ludwig Baer's books are probably the best sources for detailed contemporary accounts explaining these various codes. The "R" and "B" along with the corresponding numbers stamped in the crown of the helmet are the steelworks codes (Roechlingen, Bischoff, etc.) along with the smelting lot numbers which recorded the quality of each of the steel ingots in case of any quality issues that could come up during the rolling and stamping process.

The 'AK'/shell size ink stamps had nothing to do with the Bekleidungsamt, but stood for the 'Abnahmekommando' inspection team, which consisted of a specially trained officer, an NCO and a few EMs. They inspected the helmets in-plant at the end of the manufacturing process (prior to the installation of the liners), not in some outside depot. Having this quality control group on site was vital as no flawed helmet was allowed to leave the plant.

To my knowledge, when a damaged helmet was repainted and refurbished, only the size stamp was applied to the inside rim of the helmet, never an AK mark.





Hello Hans,

yes I am starting to realise that my depot find/ theory may in fact not be a common occurance at all. I was under the impression that there would have been quite a few of these units in action but may be in fact just the odd one, two or three ???. A nagging question also in the back of my mind is just how many helmets would there ever have been to have repaired at any one time in the period 1917 to 1918 ???.

Respect and agree with what you are saying here is correct. Maybe I have stumbled on to something previously not known. Keep in mind that there are pictures of such a depot with helmets in it along with several other items.

And what I have put up here does raise the question of what became of the "BKA", "BJA", BIA & KBAG in the years 1917 to 1918 ???. They were a real units in the period before 1914 which got even bigger in the period 1914 to 1916 so what became of them and how did they operate at the end ???. What role did they play in the distribution and repair of steel helmets esp. when one considers that this was their responsibility for Pickelhaubes and other headgear like "Pork-pie caps" ???

This I now feel is an interesting question for collectors of German WW1 steel helmets and it would appear that I have an example of their work.

I am enjoying discussing this with you Hans.

Very best regards, Chris

[C. Roelens]

This I now feel is an interesting question for collectors of German WW1 steel helmets and it would appear that I have an example of their work

[Hoss]

Hans K,

Eric.

[Hans K.]

Chris, I would be hesitant to form an opinion on a helmet based on what a museum -or anyone else for that matter - claims. This or any other helmet should initially be discussed simply on its own merits; completely independent of the story that came with it. I think these pads should be looked at from this angle, and not based on theories of overrun depots and museum storage practices. This kind of theorizing doesn't help develope an eye for what is original. Quite the contrary. I also think the helmet as a whole should be scrutinized more carefully.

Hans

[90th Light]

Chris, I would be hesitant to form an opinion on a helmet based on what a museum -or anyone else for that matter - claims. This or any other helmet should initially be discussed simply on its own merits; completely independent of the story that came with it. I think these pads should be looked at from this angle, and not based on theories of overrun depots and museum storage practices. This kind of theorizing doesn't help develope an eye for what is original. Quite the contrary. I also think the helmet as a whole should be scrutinized more carefully.

Hans

Hello again Hans,

on the surface of this situation I can see how some reading this could feel unsettled and how it would be convenient to come to that conclusion but this helmet was in no way picked up in a one off situation with a nice little hearsay story about how it came from a museum.

In this case, full academic/ university access was granted to museum records and they were scrutinised and allowed to be copied. The main purpose was to find out what had happened to WW1 German machine guns and field guns brought back and then distributed around the country. This study however expanded considerably once it was realised that a war trophy committee had existed to collect & bring back all sorts of manner of enermy material. As the study progress over 2 to 3 years, many interesting and rare WW1 German items started to surface. Sadly however much had also been destroyed, lost & neglected. Another point is that the thesis written was properly reviewed by academic hierarchy, documented, accepted and protected.

The helmets (and yes I mean more than one but not all camos) obtained were nothing compared to the remains of trophies like a WW1 German horse drawn ambulance they had and sadly the search for the Albatross fighter they got also at that time in the 1920's which it turned out had been cut into pieces for easier display and the engine used for a while else where. There was alot more to this investigation/ research than just helmets and all of it properly documented at a time (1920's) in the history of a proud colony of the British Empire where things were not done "slap-dash" but instead "ship-shape & Bristol fashion". (with a 58% causility rate, they really paid the price for being such a proud colony)

I have no problem at all if members reading this find the helmet hard to accept for what ever reason. The fact still remains that this helmet was brought back from WW1 by a New Zealand soldier who got it from depot in 1918. They were not confused about that because there was an official process going on at the time to find and document what was happening and those records still exist and can be peer reviewed.

The liner may appear new due to lack of use and it is also a little dried out, hardened from the passage of time. In fact it may even have been quite wet at sometime in its life. All the pads are in place and typical of originals.

In the interests however of keeping an open mind about this on my part , can you then please show me here on this thread or forum examples of fake WW1 German helmet liners made of pig-skin or some other grade two type leather like that with "BA" type markings on the reverse. I am told by Eric that there is at least 100 years of collecting experience here enteracting with me over this so surely amongst yours Hans or someones records there will be examples of such fakes for some reading this to feel concern. If fake then there would be more than one of these and they would by now be readily known because I have had this helmet for many years, long before I ever heard of the internet.

If however you can not show me such fakes then I put to you that we have a variation from the norm liner because of depot refurbishment made of a grade two leather because of German shortages and pending economic callapse in the latter half of 1918 and that this has now been brought to your attention, hopefully interest and everyone enjoys learning something new.

Again Hans I am appreciating your interest and depth of experience regarding this topic,

Best regards, Chris