2 M16 Camos on e stand

[90th Light]

design of the 2nd helmet. The colour patches are too straightly lined up for my taste.

Sorry I do not understand what you mean by this comment, could you please explain in more detail,

Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Two helmets:

1st. Helmet: Still bad. It's an old repaint. I see nothing on the surface to suggest it's an original and see everything in common with repainted helmets. Just becasue it has real age does not mean it was painted during the war and saw combat use.

2nd. Helmet: I'll bless off on that one after seeing the close ups.

As for deviding lines and adman's comments. Most of the time the lines were not done with a lot of care so straight lines can be bad news but of course is not conclusive in and of it self.

That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. If Chuck agrees I think you can take my two cents to the bank. If Hans comes here and agrees it's written in stone far as am concerned but Hans has not been around much.

William

[90th Light]

Two helmets:

1st. Helmet: Still bad. It's an old repaint. I see nothing on the surface to suggest it's an original and see everything in common with repainted helmets. Just becasue it has real age does not mean it was painted during the war and saw combat use.

2nd. Helmet: I'll bless off on that one after seeing the close ups.

As for deviding lines and adman's comments. Most of the time the lines were not done with a lot of care so straight lines can be bad news but of course is not conclusive in and of it self.

That's my two cents take it for what it's worth. If Chuck agrees I think you can take my two cents to the bank. If Hans comes here and agrees it's written in stone far as am concerned but Hans has not been around much.

William

Ah ! I see,

called "Post Modern Collecting by Concensus" or "PMCC"

The danger is when it becomes PMCT or "Post Modern Collector Tension"

An old repaint ??? Those of us who have been around for a while remember what use to be called "the Belgium repaints" that could be worth investigating as they would have some age now.

With the benefit of the better images however, I like the texture of the paint which is an area fakers often seem to fail on. Look at the images of the camo you posted it does not appear to have the texture ,

Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Ah ! I see,

called "Post Modern Collecting by Concensus" or "PMCC"

The danger is when it becomes PMCT or "Post Modern Collector Tension"

An old repaint ??? Those of us who have been around for a while remember what use to be called "the Belgium repaints" that could be worth investigating as they would have some age now.

With the benefit of the better images however, I like the texture of the paint which is an area fakers often seem to fail on. Look at the images of the camo you posted it does not appear to have the texture ,

Chris

Chris,

We here in the Imperial forum are concerned with combat worn camo's. Anything less is not something we like to collect. A Belgium repaint still does not have the same history of a combat worn camo.

If you are trying to suggest a Belgium repaint is on par with combat worn I don't think you will find much sympathy here for them. A repaint is a repaint. Post war is post war.

Would you rather I give it a good review when I do not believe the helmet to be good? Or just so seller can flip the helmet and buy some TR stuff? What's the motivation here?

BY the way 90's welcome back to the Imperial Section. Where have you been?



W.

[90th Light]

Chris,

We here in the Imperial forum are concerned with combat worn camo's. Anything less is not something we like to collect. A Belgium repaint still does not have the same history of a combat worn camo.

If you are trying to suggest a Belgium repaint is on par with combat worn I don't think you will find much sympathy here for them. A repaint is a repaint. Post war is post war.

Would you rather I give it a good review when I do not believe the helmet to be good? Or just so seller can flip the helmet and buy some TR stuff? What's the motivation here?

BY the way 90's welcome back to the Imperial Section. Where have you been?



W.

Hello W,

this is a little bit hard to follow and seems a little negative but no fight from me, life is too short and this is a hobby to be enjoyed plus the sharing of knowledge.

My reference to "the Belgium repaints" was not implying that this was one of them at all but instead to ask that if you know a lot about old repaints then surely you have seen these and can anaylse the characteristics of one.

These would probably be some of the oldest repaints out there and therefore the ones most likely to be showing age as you put it

I can however tell you that this is not a Belgium job, there are a couple of charateristics which tell me that for sure. One must however always keep these in mind when reviewing a bold camo. The Belgium ones are bold, bright and contrasting. They were made to impress and attract at the time plus they could use up a range of paints on them.

Your statement about "combat worn helmets" is a little naive, many German helmets brought back from WW1 have got most of the combat wear in the years since 1918 but I take your sentiment about a helmet which has "the right patina" shall we say. The fact remains however that this forum can not just write off helmets which are period (pre- Nov 1918) but did not get a lot of use, wear or damage at the time. If one collects WW1 German camos then all original camos must surely be of interest to many.

I do not understand your reference to the Third Reich in this case and it seems silly

Your last sentence makes even less sense and appears to be immature but hopefully I may have misunderstood that,

Chris

[Hoss]

Iam Amazed,
Absolutely Amazed you could even consider helmet 1-17 is a legit camo. Its a classic example of a post war tourist store bring home. Purchased in France or Belgium.
Helmet 18-26 is a Dam Good Camo. I need a drink!!!

Eric.

[C. Roelens]

Iam Amazed,
Absolutely Amazed you could even consider helmet 1-17 is a legit camo. Its a classic example of a post war tourist store bring home. Purchased in France or Belgium.
Helmet 18-26 is a Dam Good Camo. I need a drink!!!

Eric.

I'm still speechless. Also, been drinkin for a couple of hours trying to get rid of the headache from reading the history lessons on NZ.

[90th Light]

Ok then Chuck and Eric,

I too could get rude but personally I would rather stick with what the spirit of WAF is all about.

but please go ahead and tell us all why "Mayer" first helmet which I suppose your unexplained reference "1-17" refers to and how this is a classic tourist model,

Your explaination should be good to say the least.

And "Chuck" esp. sorry to bore you with New Zealand history about how WW1 German camos came back from the war, My mistake. Have today just looked out some of my official New Zealand WW1 regimental histories & publications from the 1920's to arrange to get posted here the pictures in these of the NZEF trophy committee at work in the period 1917 to 1919. There are several pictures of some of these over-run depots and the equipment in them including camo helmets & cans of paint. Thought you & others reading this might be interested but it would appear I am wrong.

Good confirmation of what other experienced collectors have said to me that it is not worth posting on WAF and why they are not prepared to add their experience or images of their collections to these discussions.

Now I await with anticipation all your in-depth and revealing detail about why "Mayer's" first camo helmet is tourist and not period. Please do not hold back, I am humbled and silence further by what our Maori people call "mana"

The very best of regards, Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

One thing about the still drying camo helmets all seemingly ending up in one country. Why don't we have or see any examples of them anywhere else?

Chris there is no need for anyone to get rude here but consider you are giving us very un orthodox information and it's not un called for taking your info with a bit of skepticism.

I still believe the first helmet is BAD and my only motivation posting this thread was to save someone from paying a grand for a bad helmet. Nothing more nothing less. I don't know the seller and have no beef with him. For all I know he really believes his helmet is good.

Selling one bad with one good helmet is a pretty good tactic to un load a bad one at a good price by making them a package deal. I hope no one takes the bait and I did suggest to the seller that he part them out. I say all this making no judgments on his reputation. I say it only for the fact that this kinda stuff happens.

W.

[C. Roelens]

Ok then Chuck and Eric,

I too could get rude but personally I would rather stick with what the spirit of WAF is all about.

but please go ahead and tell us all why "Mayer" first helmet which I suppose your unexplained reference "1-17" refers to and how this is a classic tourist model,

Your explaination should be good to say the least.

And "Chuck" esp. sorry to bore you with New Zealand history about how WW1 German camos came back from the war, My mistake. Have today just looked out some of my official New Zealand WW1 regimental histories & publications from the 1920's to arrange to get posted here the pictures in these of the NZEF trophy committee at work in the period 1917 to 1919. There are several pictures of some of these over-run depots and the equipment in them including camo helmets & cans of paint. Thought you & others reading this might be interested but it would appear I am wrong.

Good confirmation of what other experienced collectors have said to me that it is not worth posting on WAF and why they are not prepared to add their experience or images of their collections to these discussions.

Now I await with anticipation all your in-depth and revealing detail about why "Mayer's" first camo helmet is tourist and not period. Please do not hold back, I am humbled and silence further by what our Maori people call "mana"

The very best of regards, Chris

Chris,

No harm intended! I will hold my comments pending your "evidence" that proves "mayers" first camo is an original WWI German "wartime" issued camo.
Everyone on this Forum has some degree of experience and knowledge, "No" one on this Forum knows everything, and, we can all learn from each other... enough of the "lip" service... lets see what you got...

Chuck

[90th Light]

One thing about the still drying camo helmets all seemingly ending up in one country. Why don't we have or see any examples of them anywhere else?

Chris there is no need for anyone to get rude here but consider you are giving us very un orthodox information and it's not un called for taking your info with a bit of skepticism.

I still believe the first helmet is BAD and my only motivation posting this thread was to save someone from paying a grand for a bad helmet. Nothing more nothing less. I don't know the seller and have no beef with him. For all I know he really believes his helmet is good.

Selling one bad with one good helmet is a pretty good tactic to un load a bad one at a good price by making them a package deal. I hope no one takes the bait and I did suggest to the seller that he part them out. I say all this making no judgments on his reputation. I say it only for the fact that this kinda stuff happens.

W.

W,

I can see my information is a bit of a bolt from the blue but have you yourself ever done any research at all into how the Germans got and maintained their equipment in the front-line. What was their logistical set up for the creation and supply of these camo helmets in the years 1916 to 18

I am not trying to be smart with this question but have you ever looked into it because I am not trying to say that all these 100% camo helmets are in NZ, I was trying to hopefully let you see with a sound basis how a large number got back to a small country which at first glance seems strange.

How I came across this information myself was via a friend of mine who did his thesis for his masters degree in history on the WW1 German Artillery pieces and MG's brought back to NZ after the war. What he unearthed sitting in various archieves was amazing and hence how we stumbled across the work of the war trophy committee.

The point is that this was happening in many allied countries involved in this conflict such as Australia and the USA. Helmets would have come back this way to all of them. Thus there could be helmets which may have come from a depot and not had a lot of use after refurbishment.

Here is an interesting question from me to you, how did the war bond helmets get to the USA, Who handled that and how did they assemble such large numbers and how many of them were in unissued condition ?.

Amazes me that we can collect these helmets with such passion but very few of us ever do any indepth research of any form give or take the odd exception. Many just talk to people who talk to people who talk to people and on it goes but is there any real depth to all this talk.

All I tried to do with the limited time I have on this at the moment was share something I have been lucky enough to have come across in my time that does show how helmets can be nicely camo on the outside yet show real use on the inside.

Another interesting find in all of this as well, was a discovery about replacement liners & pads put into refurbished helmets but may be I better save that for another thread.

Anyway I will now observe with interest the reasons why "Mayer" first helmet is a tourist example. In these things I always keep an open mind and never too old to learn so lets hope it is good.

Best regards, Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Well Chris, I have done what I can to learn about Helmets and the German Army of WWI. I have bought a few books one being the History of the German Steel Helmet 1916-1945. I have another reference book and have read a book on the order of battle and army group organization. I have never talked to any vets and have not handled many helmets if you compare my experience to guys like Chuck. So I've done what I can. What I did read made no mention of depots repair of helmets. Pretty much those helmets did not need a whole lot of repair. Yes the Germans salvaged the battle fields but a helmet either takes a hit or it does not. You can pound out a shrapnel dent but if you get a hole in the helmet it was probably junked. The Liners were durable I'd imagine most liners lasted as long as the wearer served unless gray matter rotted all over them and even then I don't see the need to replace them in mass. What I read was that painting was done while a unit was in the rear for rest and re fit. Or before moving up to the front while still fresh. I don't think much painting went on once at the front. From what I understand painting was done on a unit by unit basis. I'd imagine that if when helmets did need to be stripped and refurbished that the army would simply use field gray for a faster turn over and let the soldaten worry about camo on their own time. I may be wrong but I know camo was not applied in the factories in Germany, and I'd imagine there was a reason for that.

Never heard of any war bond helmets in the USA. I do own a war bond Prussian Belt Buckle. It's mint. If anyone has any mint helmets by all mean post them so I can see one. I've never seen one and I'd think if anyone had one to sell I'd have seen it on e bay by now.

As for Meyers first helmet. I don't even think it rates a 20's repaint. In my opinion it was done in the late 70's or early 80's. No way is that a good helmet. Even if you can post period photos of helmets drying in the sun, black and white can only show so much details. I doubt your photos will be conclusive but I am interested to see them all the same.
And no matter how much experience a collector has, no amount will make a bad helmet good.



W.

[Adler 1]

Wow, what a discussion... All I can say is that helmet 1 looks like a repaint and helmet 2 looks ok all the way...
Helmet 1 can't convince me because of the wear, the edges look really odd to me... as if it was painted over light rust. Maybe a few macro shots of the edges can make me turn the other way...

Adler 1

[PlaceOfBayonets]

PS, I have seen war bond helmets but only haulbs. Not steel helmets. Not saying they don't exist but I am saying they are never seen and I've been looking at everything I can the last 5 years now.

W.

[90th Light]

PS, I have seen war bond helmets but only haulbs. Not steel helmets. Not saying they don't exist but I am saying they are never seen and I've been looking at everything I can the last 5 years now.

W.

Hello W,

ok well now ask yourself how so many Pickelhaubes arrived in the USA and are given away in war bond drives. All sorts of Pickelhaubes, leather, metal, felt, cork & other ersatz materials. Many incomplete and missing certain parts but most unissued or in a state of repair.

The answer, they came from supply depots over-run behind the lines. In fact many were German front line trade-ins for a steel helmets which were not reissued to front line troops but could stiil be used by those in the rear areas, Landsturm or Landwehr. Others had just never been issued ever or completed.

Strange when one stops and thinks why so many unissued Pickelhaube could be found in the USA after WW1 when America never entered the war until 1917 and its troops never got into battle until mid to late 1917. Not exactly the the time when a US soldier looking to get a war trophy was going to find many German front line soldiers still wearing a Pickelhaube they could grab to take home.

Now take the source of all those "war bond" Pickelhaubes and add in the Steel helmets found with them at that time and you have now got a source of unissued or refurbished Camo & field grey helmets in the USA after 1918.

This is someting worth researching, who organised this, where did they get the helmets, how many, was it official policy or some budding American entrepreneur of the day. An unwritten story in the history of the German helmet in America.

Also if you want to see some excellent images of one of these depot unit in action the do a search about the 1915 Pickelhaubes made of "shiny black" tin by companies like "Bing" toy makers, Bavaria and you will see actual war time pictures of one of these "BKA" German units at work in a rear area depot putting these tin 1915 helmets together. Seemingly these tin helmets were shiped to the front in crates of parts and then assembled as close to the action as possible for issue to the troops.

Of course the issue of the Tin Pickelhaube by 1915 was semi "enmasse" to front line units because they thought it would give more protection but it did not so it was followed by the field grey steel Pickelhaubes by early 1916 which again did not quite do the trick. My point is however that it was these same "BKA" come "AK ?" depot units just behind the lines who got the job to get ready and issue the new M16 steel helmet "enmasse" and they never quite had enough & hence the real need to keep maintaining what they could get.

Anyway do a search, I was amazed by the pictures of the tin Pickelhaube being assembled and had always thought that they would have been issued when the German soldier got his uniform in Germany. In fact you will find that when a German soldier went on leave away from the front, they often had to hand in their steel helmets in at a depot so they could be reused if needed.

Again I have got no problem if I have got it wrong about "Mayer's" first helmet. I love learning as much about this stuff in detail as I can. A thirst for knowledge so I look forward to the finer points of "tourist helmets" just the same as I am sharing "depot helmets"

Here an interesting question out of all of this; in a Pickelhaube you will get a "BA" number as well as maker, size & unit but in an M16, M17 steel helmet you often get an "R" or "B" number stamped into the metal inside the top of the helmet or you get a "AK" ink stamp on the rim. Ever wondered what that is all about and thought depot/ supply authority,

Chris