2 M16 Camos on e stand

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Please review the two helmets on the e stand seen here,

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=407875

I am gonna call the first one so bad even a WWII collector should know better. The insides look ok it's the outsides I don't like. I'd need better photos of the second one but I don't like what I see so far.
I don't think anyone should get burned on this sale like someone did on the Machine Gunner's Helmet that sold. And Chuck I could not find the sales thread for a post sale review.

William

[Adam S.]

This should be another interesting review. The colours do look a bit odd which is what I think you're seeing. Could be the lighting.

[jerryrehr]

Both are good!!!!

Jerry R.

[PlaceOfBayonets]

This should be another interesting review. The colours do look a bit odd which is what I think you're seeing. Could be the lighting.

The color and the texture. It looks like modern paint with that latext soft feel. I just looked again and want to know why the photos of the outside are so much worse then the inside? Seller had no problem taking decent shots of the inside.

If that helmet is good then I am listing my size 70 original painted helmet seen here on ebay and should get 1200 bucks the pattern is so nice.

Jerry what is your opinion of this camo in this post seen below?

W.

[90th Light]

What exactly is wrong with the second helmet for sale by "Mayer" on the estand ??? Looks to be a nice one from what one can tell via computer image and I see nothing wrong with the camo.

The camo on the first helmet for sale by "Mayer" is a little unusual in some ways but could be ok. Hard to say more with out better close up images or a hands on. Liner has suffered from bad handling, storage or conservation but that happens over 90 to 100 years.

What we have to keep in mind is that these helmets were often revamps of field-grey/ field-green helmets which had been used in battle in the period 1916 to 1917. Not all camo helmets were factory new with a camo in late 1917 & 1918. I have picked up several directly from New Zealand WW1 vets or their families many years ago. A couple of the nicer camos I got had come from German supply/ repair depots behind the German lines which were over-run by the rapid advance of ANZAC soldiers after the collapse of the German line with the failure of the German offensive after March 1918

My point is that some WW1 camos have come from battlefield pick-ups and have seen actual use/ damage in battle, others have come from store/ repair depots and saw no actual combat. Some camos have been carefully stored and preserved since WW1 while others have been abused, used, played with, badly stored and generally knock around or left to rot. Plus there is a range of distinct patterns from the period 1916 to 1917 which changed a bit in 1917 and you get another period of distinct patterns for the period late 1917 to the end in 1918. In fact newer patterns were emerging at the end in November 1918. (More detail about this in a later thread and when I get a chance to post some of mine)

What one old vet told me was that he saw more than once in 1918 were shelves of finished/ repaired/ completed camo helmets and tables/ work benches with helmets in various states of repair, repaint plus cans of paint, buckets, bottles, brushes, parts and tools. Once inside the New Zealand soldiers helped themselves but later many of the helmets were thrown away or discarded because the Kiwi troops got tired of carrying them around or some officers thought the behaviour inappriopriate.

When I get a chance I will dig some of my helmets out and post some images of the direct vet ones I got but in my opinion at this stage, the second helmet is fine and the first one has real potential to be good,

Chris

[Hoss]

Camos

Excellent Chris,
Absolutely,
Germany thoughout the War allways had a problem with supply. Nearly all camos had allready been used and even reissued in fieldgray before the order came down for camouflage.
Ludendorff himself ordered that camouflage should if possible match the surroundings and its not usually to have colors added and 'touched up' or even repainted.
Troops complained of never having enough paint to effect repairs.
W. brought up a great point regarding tourists visiting the Battlefields. It was a very popular vacation destination especially for the English 'middle class' in the early 20s.
There is so much we have to consider when making a judgement on helmets.

Eric.

[C. Roelens]

I'll reserve my comments until I see better pics of the first helmet.

Chris, point well taken. I would like to see your examples of "Supply/Repair Depot" camo helmets of WWI.. I would also consider them to be very rare since I've never seen one for sale.

Eric, I think we both agree with the comments made by Chris. You are an Imperial/Prussian headgear collector also, what is your opinion of the first camo in question?

Chuck

[Hoss]

I'll reserve my comments until I see better pics of the first helmet.

Chris, point well taken. I would like to see your examples of "Supply/Repair Depot" camo helmets of WWI.. I would also consider them to be very rare since I've never seen one for sale.

Eric, I think we both agree with the comments made by Chris. You are an Imperial/Prussian headgear collector also, what is your opinion of the first camo in question?

Chuck

Do you mean the ones for sale by Mayer?
The one first posted I would,nt go anywhere near.The second or last one looks ok 'so far' but I,d like to see a really close photo of the paint. A good place to look is the front brim or around the frontal plate vent lug maybe a rivet but the naughty people are aware of that and take extra pains regarding rivets.
A quick note on buying usually you can tell if the seller is ok by his manner in returning emails and what he has to say. I,am allways suspicious of buying from East Europe and so called 'Attic Finds'. If there were from my attic they would be rusted to hell within a couple of weeks!!

Eric.

[90th Light]

Hello Chuck and Eric,

These WW1 helmets could be found in New Zealand in reasonable numbers throughout the 1970's, 80's & 90's and were always reasonably priced.

In recent times however they have become harder to find and there is a lot more interest in collecting them. During the seventies and 80's, I saw many which were ruined by bikies and louts who use to paint them black and chrome them to wear in public/ on the roads.

The reason why quite a few wound up back in New Zealand is because obviously the returning soldiers who brought them back but also because the 1st NZEF formed an official war trophies commitee/ unit to collect at least two of everything the enermy soldiers who the New Zealanders were up against were using. The idea being to create a national war museum in Wellington (NZ capital city) like the Australian's had decided they would do.

This unit basically went around France from 1917 onwards and into the occupation of 1919 collecting up German items on mass. They assemble two of everything literally including planes, guns, MG's, lorries, uniforms, all sorts of equipment and even two German made tanks (which I am proud to say were actually knocked out by the New Zealanders, in fact the only German WW1 tank left in the world in Australia today is one of them)

Sadly this national war museum was not built in the 1920's and a decision was made to distribute all these German items around the districts of New Zealand for public display. Basically every public building of any kind got something ie Halls, Schools, Municipal Chambers, Government Buildings, Private Loyal Socities, Public Parks & Gardens, and Museums. The bigger the building the bigger the items you got and the more people then the more items. Literally everything from German buttons to German planes and every thing in between such as wagons and weapons.

Sadly a lot of this stuff has been lost, destroyed, stolen, sold, buried, burnt, neglected, forgotten, sunk, stored out of sight, dumped and melted. Some has manged to survive to this day and is still on public display but it gets less each year.

The reason I mention this trophy commitee is because the files about them make fascinating reading such as how they requested motor transport when first formed and were turned down being told they were not a priority unit. Very early on in their list of official war trophies is noted two German staff cars documented as "immediately pressed back into service against the foe by necessity" From beginngs like this the collection of enermy material began with not surprisingly lorries and wagons being well up the list.

They have made careful notes about all their activities and amongst these notes is mention about the capture of these supply/ repair depots. An inventory was made at the time of all the items they officially recovered from the depots and other places. These were listed as New Zealand government captured enermy material, official property required for purpose and protected as such. There are several hundred German helmets/ headgear of various kinds on the list with the majority coming from depot finds.

I think also that many who reaserch the American War Bond Helmets that were offered to the US public when they put money into the war effort will also find that many of those helmets came from over-run supply/ repair depots because there are notes made by this committee that any surplus helmets not required by New Zealand, Australia or Britain can be forwarded on to USA authories.

An interesting and may be forgotten chapter by today's collectors but never the less a source at the time of German WW1 camo helmets with signs of use on the inside but some times 100% camo paint on the outside at the time capture having been just painted and sitting on a shelf for reissue to German Ersatz units joining the fighting at the front. On the other hand of course some helmets stored in the depots were brand new having just arrived from the factory as replacements for helmets damaged beyond repair or lost in battle.

Hope this is not too long and of interest,

Regards, Chris

p.s. the 1920/ 30's tourist helmets are another area needing more research and discussion.

[C. Roelens]

An interesting and may be fogotten chapter by today's collectors but nether the less a source of helmets with signs of use on the inside but some times 100% camo paint on the outside at the time capture having been just painted and sitting on a shelf for reissue to German Ersatz units joining the fighting at the front.

Chris,

Your comments are welcomed, and much appreciated. Now, the big question - Do you really think the first "mayer" camo is one of these?

Chuck

[90th Light]

An interesting and may be fogotten chapter by today's collectors but nether the less a source of helmets with signs of use on the inside but some times 100% camo paint on the outside at the time capture having been just painted and sitting on a shelf for reissue to German Ersatz units joining the fighting at the front.

Chris,

Your comments are welcomed, and much appreciated. Now, the big question - Do you really think the first "mayer" camo is one of these?

Chuck

Hello Chuck,

very hard to comment more than what I have already said in my first posting.

I need at the very least close up images of the paint and even better a hands on.

Here are my points of caution however;

1/ An "over-run depot" helmet still in Europe ??? Possible but who got it from depot to save it to this day ??? Keep in mind that the ones the German still had in 1919 were pressed back into service, used by private armies, sold overseas, confiscated or destroyed.

2/ Colors of the camo look a little strange but may be a period oddity or may it is just the pictures. This point needs to be carefully checked however. Do these colors match any of the known beyond doubt examples.

3/ The liner shows oiling, use and post war neglect so someone has had that helmet some where since 1918 and have been been doing something with it (see the comments I am about to add to another thread about these being used as buckets post war after 1918).

All these points considered however the helmet has real potential for a later 1918 effort. As the war went on the paint got thiner because they had to make it go further and thined it more and more. Hence it becomes smoother in nature with less brush marks and runs alot more easy. Those runs of paint are in its favour (provided it has not been painted with a spray-gun), they show haste in painting and are not something I have seen on post war repaints which are usually carefully painted & segmented to try and look like an original war time pattern. (In a few cases you always see runs of paint on original war time camos)

Another thing too, because the Germans became short of paint in 1918 they started using a wider variety of paints and thinned them with a wider variety on substances. Hence some on rare occasion are not as flat or matt as they should be plus ones out of a depot will have had no field use or tarnish at all (of course some have had more than their fair share since 1918 but other in rare cases the odd one has been carefully stored since 1918 eg in a museum collection).

Hope you can follow me, I need better images to check these points,

Best regards, Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

The main problem I have with the veiw points you've posted Chris is while it may be the case your arguments would also excuse 80% of the fakes out there unless you tested then for led and then that would still excuse a % of helmets where the fakers used led paint.

The main problem with the second helmet is the photos. I stated as much. The main problem with the first one is it looks like the fakes out there. Like Eric, I would not go anywhere near it. It's a bad helmet and IF it was painted in 1918 the colors should be the regulation colors not what we see and waht I see is color tones that try to mimic the original color tones but fail.
Conveniently the painter incorporated the liner pins into the black lines. I am not saying that this did not occure with many originals just that if you are looking to fake a helmet that is the easy way to go.

W.

[90th Light]

The main problem I have with the veiw points you've posted Chris is while it may be the case your arguments would also excuse 80% of the fakes out there unless you tested then for led and then that would still excuse a % of helmets where the fakers used led paint.

The main problem with the second helmet is the photos. I stated as much. The main problem with the first one is it looks like the fakes out there. Like Eric, I would not go anywhere near it. It's a bad helmet and IF it was painted in 1918 the colors should be the regulation colors not what we see and waht I see is color tones that try to mimic the original color tones but fail.
Conveniently the painter incorporated the liner pins into the black lines. I am not saying that this did not occure with many originals just that if you are looking to fake a helmet that is the easy way to go.

W.

Hello W, no worries its a hobby and its fun plus interesting

I have read as many accounts as I have been able to get my hands on that the Germans wrote at the time and they certainly state clearly that they were struggling to comply with what was expect as per the regulations. They were told to improvise, get the most out of what they had to take note of local terrain/ resources. All this adds up to a range of possibilities which can be encountered.

Another thing I have not yet mentioned and to complicate this even further is the German units which did camo on their helmets in the field themselves. I have seen more than one period photo of certain units applying paint to their helmets in their trenches so it would appear that a camo paint scheme could be applied either at a depot or by a unit. The depots seem to handle resupply of existing units and the equiping of new ersatz units where as an active front line unit would take responsibilty for their own issued helmets until such helmets needed workshop repair at which time they would be collected and taken to a depot.

After repair at the depot the helmets would then await re-issue to a new owner/ unit. In the mean time replacement helmets would have already been sent to the unit which had sent in the helmets for repair and now needed replacements. These replacements could either be factory new or depot refurbished examples depending on what was available at the time.

Helmets from deceased soldiers or helmets recovered in the field were also refurbished. This practise was not popular with German soldiers however as they considered it bad luck to be issued such a helmet. Necessity and shortages of course prevail and sometimes one had to put up with what one was given.

Not all German paint of the period 1916 to 1918 is lead based either. In fact lead based paint is a very British type of paint. The Germans in fact used a range of other compounds in their paint and were masters at improvising because they did not have a lot of lead and the Allied blockade was making it very difficult for them by 1918.

The challenge is what is a regulation German WW1 camo helmet and what is not when it comes to these because to be honest, variations both slight and not so slight do seem to abound,

Regards, Chris

Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

With all you say as it is I see no reason to think my camo helmet is not an original. The main problem people had with it is that the paint looked too new even though rust comes through the paint.
Only other comment is on most originals I see I think a lot of the age on them was done post war, being moved around, stored and occasionally dropped and played with by children. So even one that was still drying when an allied Soldier found it should be aged as such. I've never seen an un issued WWI steel helmet. I am sure they exist but never seen one.


W.

[90th Light]

With all you say as it is I see no reason to think my camo helmet is not an original. The main problem people had with it is that the paint looked too new even though rust comes through the paint.
Only other comment is on most originals I see I think a lot of the age on them was done post war, being moved around, stored and occasionally dropped and played with by children. So even one that was still drying when an allied Soldier found it should be aged as such. I've never seen an un issued WWI steel helmet. I am sure they exist but never seen one.


W.

Hello again W,

hard to say much about your helmet without at least close up images of the paint but the colours on your one do seem to have had a wash applied over them and look streaky. This is not a good sign at all but hard to say for sure with out close ups. One often sees a watery black or diluted wash applied to fake repaints to try and make them look old.

I agree that the shaky pattern and colors are not typical.

On a postive note however I have seen original WW1 camos which have been varnished post war with gloss varnish to make them look bright and in some mistaken belief it will protect them from more rust. Has your one been varnished ?

To be honest, I like "Mayers" first helmet more than I like this one you have posted but need better images of both to be able to say more.

Picking up on your comment about German camo being handled before the paint has dried, I have had two which have had a clear finger- print in the paint. An un-intended signature by the artist in its own funny way.

Trying to think if I have ever seen one mint and unissued still with any paper labels attached ? (Good question I have seen some nice ones but have I seen a totally unissed one even in a book).

Did you pay much for your helmet ?

Chris