M-18 Pants?

[MilitaryCollect]

W.,

Johan Somer's book ("Imperial German Field Uniforms and Equipment - 1907 - 1918", pages 749-50 (ISBN: 0-7643-2262-1).

Best,

C.

[Chip M]

Just an additional note. I talked to Johan about the trousers in his book and he has informed me that he has had second thoughts about them being from WWI and has added a disclaimer about them at his on-line errata web-page.

Chip

[PlaceOfBayonets]

I think my gut feeling on them was right. Owner needs to find out what he has so knows the value. Too bad the Germans did not field such a item as I can tell you the piped trousers have too much material to deal with when wrapping putties.

W.

[C. Roelens]

Excellent discussion generated on these trousers. I think they have finally hit the ground in flames.

Chuck

[phild]

I am still not sure either way about these breeches being pre-1919 or not. I have been collecting German uniforms for (including Imperial) for almost 35 years and I research a whole lot more than I simply buy things...so I'm hardly a babe in the woods.

I have long understood the conventional thinking on WWI era German contract trousers and breeches. That is the color changes, piping and no piping , rear belt/bridle construction, lack of rear pocket and calf ties for breeches....and other features. It is also a fact that all of these features were at times not found or different on private breeches of the period.....all of this only meaning that from a military fashion standpoint the breeches that are the subject of this thread are NOT unusual for the WWI period. They are simply unusual for a pre-1919 CONTRACT/ISSUE pair.

With the above in mind, it appears to be documented that in 1919 breeches in this color and with these features WERE officially adopted by the Army. What is not known for sure is if breeches with these characteristics actually started being made prior to Nov.1918.....there is no documentation on this, but there is a lot of things about WWI uniforms that is un-documented at this point.

It would appear from the regulations that the Army went back to stone gray in the very early 1920s (maybe even 1920?) and these are FELDGRAU. Feldgrau was not introduced again until late 1939 and these breeches do NOT post date 1939 for a lot of reasons.....SO they are either very rare examples made from about 1919 to 1920 (or so) or they are very late WWI examples with features that are not found (at least yet) in the documentation.

One thing that I have to say is that IME 1920s-mid1930s Army issue clothing items seem to be profusly marked with date stamps,unit stamps and often multiple re-issue stamps and grading stamps....same is true on Imperial pre-war and early war uniforms. Uniforms from the last 2 years (or so) of WWI will most often be found with few such stamps and tend to be marked much closer to what we see in these breeches.

I have no basis to know to what extent the uniforms from 1919 thru about 1920 were marked...as there are so darn few items from that period that survive.

[MilitaryCollect]

M-18 Pants?

I am still not sure either way about these breeches being pre-1919 or not. I have been collecting German uniforms for (including Imperial) for almost 35 years and I research a whole lot more than I simply buy things...so I'm hardly a babe in the woods.

I have long understood the conventional thinking on WWI era German contract trousers and breeches. That is the color changes, piping and no piping , rear belt/bridle construction, lack of rear pocket and calf ties for breeches....and other features. It is also a fact that all of these features were at times not found or different on private breeches of the period.....all of this only meaning that from a military fashion standpoint the breeches that are the subject of this thread are NOT unusual for the WWI period. They are simply unusual for a pre-1919 CONTRACT/ISSUE pair.

With the above in mind, it appears to be documented that in 1919 breeches in this color and with these features WERE officially adopted by the Army. What is not known for sure is if breeches with these characteristics actually started being made prior to Nov.1918.....there is no documentation on this, but there is a lot of things about WWI uniforms that is un-documented at this point.

It would appear from the regulations that the Army went back to stone gray in the very early 1920s (maybe even 1920?) and these are FELDGRAU. Feldgrau was not introduced again until late 1939 and these breeches do NOT post date 1939 for a lot of reasons.....SO they are either very rare examples made from about 1919 to 1920 (or so) or they are very late WWI examples with features that are not found (at least yet) in the documentation.

One thing that I have to say is that IME 1920s-mid1930s Army issue clothing items seem to be profusly marked with date stamps,unit stamps and often multiple re-issue stamps and grading stamps....same is true on Imperial pre-war and early war uniforms. Uniforms from the last 2 years (or so) of WWI will most often be found with few such stamps and tend to be marked much closer to what we see in these breeches.

I have no basis to know to what extent the uniforms from 1919 thru about 1920 were marked...as there are so darn few items from that period that survive.

Hello,

Very neutral, well informed and objective.

Thank you.

C.