U-Boot Badge

[Don D.]

Also related to the 1st badge posted which started this thread, there are spots of green on the badge other than the wreath: to the right of the center portion of the hinge on the reverse and also if you look at the picture of the bottom of the U-boat where the file marks are, it is green all along the file marks.

Which is a good indicator that the lacquer has been removed.

One additional item which should be considered in the discussion of the green wreath is that the Naval Commemorative Airship badge was authorized in 1921 and is a post war badge.

I believe Schott also designed those as well.

Gary B

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[Darrell]

Is the greenish appearance (U-Boot Badge directed) a finish applied, or the discoloration due to lacquer changing composition over time?

I would assume the latter? I would really wonder why a maker would have a green finish on a U-Boot badge. But hey ... who knows what goes through these peoples heads at the time 95+ years ago.

[90th Light]

Interesting thread,

I have seen the green finish on Schott U-boat badges several times but I am wondering if other makers like Meybauer have green on them. I certainly have never seen a Meybauer with any green on it what so ever. See the comparison below. Meybauer U-Boat just range from a factory new bright gilt to a dull worn brown brass colour as they tarnish

Is this thin wash of green paint/ lacquer just a Schott manufacturing footprint ???

Chris

[90th Light]

Just comparing the amount of green on my Schott U-boat with greg1878 Schott U-boat to see how consistant if the amount of green paint/ lacquer between the two badges is.

I hope greg does not mind but it lets those reading this see some untouched badges.

Looking at these two and making an allowance for the different lighting conditions, it certainly has the potential to be factory paint or an aging lacquer,

Chris

[90th Light]

I am reviewing what I stated in post number 33.

Just got my two Maybauer U Boat badges out and had a close look at them. One definitely has clear bits of green on it. The other badge has slight traces of green. See the images below.

This is getting even more interesting. Anyone got a Maybauer with a lot of green on it ???

Chris

[90th Light]

All this, make you wonder about this one ???

Chris

[Gary B]

According to Gordon only the wreath and crown were supposed to be green, like the Naval Commemorative Airship badge. If I read the thread from the other forum correctly, Gordon gets this information from an advanced Imperial collector who states he has seen these green washed/lacquered version. Gordon has not seen or discovered a regulation or a written description of the original design which states the badges are to have a green wreath.

While I am not doubting what Gordon or this other collector are stating, what I would like to see is a sub badge with a "no questions asked" green wash. All of the badges that have been shown here, to me, could be patinated brass badges. The airship badge I show is, with no uncerttainty, a green washed badge. That type of finish is what I would like to see posted.

Gary B

[greg1878]

According to Gordon only the wreath and crown were supposed to be green, like the Naval Commemorative Airship badge. If I read the thread from the other forum correctly, Gordon gets this information from an advanced Imperial collector who states he has seen these green washed/lacquered version. Gordon has not seen or discovered a regulation or a written description of the original design which states the badges are to have a green wreath.

While I am not doubting what Gordon or this other collector are stating, what I would like to see is a sub badge with a "no questions asked" green wash. All of the badges that have been shown here, to me, could be patinated brass badges. The airship badge I show is, with no uncerttainty, a green washed badge. That type of finish is what I would like to see posted.

Gary B

Gary please see my one in this thread. If that is patina on the obverse, please explain why there is none on the rear. Do you think that someone would just clean the reverse side where nobody would see it?
Cheers - Greg

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=691438

[90th Light]

None of my badges has any green on the reverse side. Here are a couple of images.

In fact the Schott still has a lot of its gilt on the reverse and has never been cleaned.

On all three, any green or traces there of is on the front,

Chris

[Norm F]

There are a few of those badges around in their "close to mint" appearance with most of their fire gilding still present but none of those specimens show any sign of the green "enhancement"

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread. I have to go on record as saying I agree with Gordon's observations regarding the green finish.

But first a few points of clarification. The fire gilded example posted by Matt from eMedals isn't a Schott badge which makes it a bit of an "apples and oranges" comparison. It's quite true that the fire gilded badge shows no sign of the green finish.

In contrast, the originial Schott badge from the top of the thread, heavily cleaned in my opinion, hasn't a single speck of fire gilding on it, although it does have a few dots of the green finish remaining in sheltered areas.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Regarding the other badges posted by Matt illustrating verdigris, the R.K. U-Boat is in fact zinc, not brass, and that residue is bluish white zinc pest, not verdigris. The hollow Tombak Deumer does indeed show verdigris on the reverse.

[Norm F]

And finally a note regarding verdigris. Verdigris is a variable combination of copper salts of acetate, carbonate, chloride, formate, hydroxide and sulfate, and the resulting patina is a bluish-green -- quite different from the frankly dark green pasty finish that appears on the Schott U-Boat badges.

Mind you, the green finish on the U-Boats is also quite different from the green lacquer on the Airship badge posted by Gary. It appears more like the texture of pastel -- a powdered pigment in a binder.

On the other thread on GCA in which Gordon posted his comments, Stan posted his badge and made the comment: "I must admit that when I bought this U-Boat badge several years ago at auction in Germany, there was rather a lot of what I took took be verdigris which came off with soap and water." This is another clue since true verdigris would not wash off easily with soap and water like the green finish did.

Schott badges, like any other brass badge, are certainly not immune to verdigris but true verdigris looks quite different as seen here.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Gary B]

"In contrast, the originial Schott badge from the top of the thread, heavily cleaned in my opinion, hasn't a single speck of fire gilding on it, although it does have a few dots of the green finish remaining in sheltered areas." I see green on the bottom of the boat where the file marks are.

Additionally, the pictures you show in the last posting have green on the boat. So are we now saying that the entire badge was covered in a green wash/paint? Gordon states that the wreath was laquered green.


Gary B

[Norm F]

Additionally, the pictures you show in the last posting have green on the boat. So are we now saying that the entire badge was covered in a green wash/paint? Gordon states that the wreath was laquered green.
Gary B

Hi Gary,

Yes, the badges clearly show that the green finish was applied liberally and extended to the sub as well. I think it's because it's mostly worn or washed off on most examples that Gordon Williamson and Carsten Baldes and others got the impression it was intended only on the wreath - an impression that was probably strengthened by comparison to the green lacquer on the airship badge.

Walter Schott was above all a sculptor with an artist's perspective, not a manufacturer of military insignia. In the 3rd Reich, it was military insignia manufacturers who made the badges after being provided with a design but these Schott Imperial U-Boat badges were actually manufactured by Schott as Gordon proved with original documentation. Perhaps Schott's sensibility was to provide a "faux verdigris" to the U-Boat badge to satisfy his aesthetic -- one can only speculate.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Don D.]

I believe (personally) that they coated the whole front of the badge and then polished off the finish from the highlights and sub.