U-Boot Badge

[greg1878]

Gary that is incorrect. Gordon Williamson has shown documentation that the U-boot badges also had a green wreath, at least the early ones.

You are right Don, there is an interesting thread by Gordon on another forum which goes into some detail around this. I am not sure of the etiquette of posting the link here but I can send it via PM if anybody requires.
The green is an applied finish and not verdigris.
I will hopefully receive my Uboat this week and will post photos. The green finish is only ever on the obverse.
Cheers - Greg

[Don D.]

Post the link.

[greg1878]

Here it is:

http://www.germancombatawards.com/th...hilight=Schott


Greg

[Gary B]

Hi Greg and Don,

I was unaware of this recent discovery. Thanks for posting the link. Unfortunately, my premium membership has expired to that forum so I can not view the link right now. I will have to renew it so I can read what Gordon stated. I dont have his most recent book either so I don't know if the green wreathed sub badges are discussed there either.

As to the badge that started this thread, I still think the green spots are verdigris. I am assuming that these green wreathed sub badges are extremely rare and the badge pictured at the beginning of the thread is one of the more common ones.

Thoughts? Thanks again.

Gary B

[Don D.]

The "verdigris" only appears in the very low areas of the wreath and no where else so I believe it is the remains of the green wash. This badge appears to have been cleaned. There is absolutely no patina, none, zippo. Even if it was made in WW2 it would be 70 years old now and should show some patina.......

[greg1878]

I agree that it is a heavily cleaned example with small amounts of wash left.
Gary if you PM me your email I will copy and paste the conversation for you.
I have photos of the badge I have purchased and will post them in the morning and hopefully you can see the difference. As Gordon Williamson explains in the thread there was a popular misconception for many years that the green was in fact patina and was cleaned off. Therefore to find an untouched example is pretty rare
Cheers - Greg

[Matthew]

The "verdigris" only appears in the very low areas of the wreath and no where else so I believe it is the remains of the green wash. This badge appears to have been cleaned. There is absolutely no patina, none, zippo. Even if it was made in WW2 it would be 70 years old now and should show some patina.......

The verdigris in its natural state will flourish more in areas where its left undisturbed. It is usually absent on the verso of those badges since for most part they are predominantly flat and there are no major crevices there. It has been however observed on the versos to a lesser degree as well. Saying that it is only observed on the lower areas of the front of the badge is false (pic 1).
If there were cracks or crevices on the verso the verdigris would most likely be present on those as well (pic 2).
There are a few of those badges around in their "close to mint" appearance with most of their fire gilding still present but none of those specimens show any sign of the green "enhancement" (pics 3, 4). For those not familiar with fire gilding- the "frosted" parts are the easiest and usually the first to get the shine when the badge is polished or excessively cleaned (turns dark- sometimes just from handling over the decades). Furthermore some of those badges still exhibit the 'varnish' or the top layer designed to seal the surface of the badge. That layer could not be still present if one was to remove what's underneath it.
There are also a number of WW2 badges and even their 1957 counterparts that exhibit the verdigris we speak of here but as we are aware none of those came with this finish applied at the factory (pics 5, 6).
Apparently one of the factors that can accelerate the growth of verdigris on a brass/brass alloy exhibits is salt water and salty sea air.
Badges are not the only artifacts not immune to the process. There are a number of other artifacts (hats, buttons, brocades etc) that exhibit the same effect (pic 7).
While verdigris was used a color pigment in the past it has been largely eliminated due to its lack of stability in the 1800's.
IMO its just a natural process taking place on some of those badges- hardly a feature on the appearance of the badge- plain ugly sign taking away from the beauty of fire gilding and the natural finish of the pin. Probably why most collectors choose to wipe it off.
cheers
Matt

[Matthew]

pics 3 and 4

3 and 4

[Matthew]

5 and 6

pics 5 and 6

[Matthew]

last pic

pic 7- u boat cap badge.
Forgot to add- the badge that started this thread is IMO a fine example of this award.
cheers
Matt

[Don D.]

The badge that started this thread has already been identified as original. The question remains as to whether it has been cleaned or not.

[Matthew]

.

There is a mention of a green finish on some of those badges few posts above mine hence my post about that finish. I never contested the originality of the badge itself just the motion put forward by some members about factory green finish and wanted to elaborate on it.
Sorry to interrupt- won't happen again.

[Gary B]

Posting 2 pictures which may be of interest to the thread.

First is a Maybauer Naval Commemorative Airship Badge with green wash. This is one type of green finish I am used to seeing on these badges. Others have more of a green paint-like finish.

2nd posting is a WWI Naval Pilot badge with 100% original fisnish that has not been cleaned.

Gary B

[Gary B]

Also related to the 1st badge posted which started this thread, there are spots of green on the badge other than the wreath: to the right of the center portion of the hinge on the reverse and also if you look at the picture of the bottom of the U-boat where the file marks are, it is green all along the file marks.

One additional item which should be considered in the discussion of the green wreath is that the Naval Commemorative Airship badge was authorized in 1921 and is a post war badge.

Gary B

[Don D.]

There is a mention of a green finish on some of those badges few posts above mine hence my post about that finish. I never contested the originality of the badge itself just the motion put forward by some members about factory green finish and wanted to elaborate on it.
Sorry to interrupt- won't happen again.

Matt, all input is welcome. Sometimes I think the tone of the conversation can be misconstrued via typed text.