Grand Cross

[AlikN]

that Dr. Kleitmann's wife owned the Godet and I believe the Juncker trademarks in the post WWII

OK, now let's blame Dr. Kleitmann, his wife probably stamped it and Dr. Kleitmann wore the cross on the special occasions ,

Show me please some post war Juncker trademarks stamped by Dr. Kleitmann.

[AlikN]

*******Two parts to consider here.

Can't have one without the other, ...for 1939 EKs need even more parts.

*******.... When were they actually made? This is the most pertinant question. We do know that Dr. Kleitmann's wife owned the Godet and I believe the Juncker trademarks in the post WWII years and that she did indeed sell newly made decorations of the old patterns to the collector market.

So if you are saying that this type GC was made by Dr. Kleitmann or his wife or whoever postwar, ...including two of your 1870GCs,
since it's the same core and frame design, I would gladly buy it of you for a double price of postwar repo....

*******This apparent glut of makers other than Wagner strongly suggests that they are indeed copies.

All Third Reich L/... marked awards are copies.
What is so special about Wagner company that they wouldn't want to sell some parts to the local for them company like Godet .
And if the Wagner is so special why is an actual award piece is not like your Wagner style GCs,


Who made this award?

[Tiger 1]

Alikn,

I am going to disengage from this exercise of trying to expand our collective knowledge as gracefully as I can. There is no point in taking it any further. Sincere questions are asked and either no answer or flippant remarks are tendered. I see no further purpose in this.

FYI. There is quite a bit more to learn about period and postwar copies and who was involved in their production and sale. This is pertinant information when trying to form a better picture of what we collect. Try to exapand your horizons a bit without preconceptions.

I sincerely wish you luck in your quest to find the original owner who wore your GC.

All the best,

Tony

[Biro]

...I sincerely wish you luck in your quest to find the original owner who wore your GC...

That's the point at which it got silly.

[Tiger 1]

Marshall,

Me silly? He silly? We silly? Silly is as silly does.

Check out the other Grand Cross thread for a bit of background.

The man is on a quest. I was trying to gently disuade him from the futility of it before he doned his haircloth robe and set out into the desert for the rest of his life.

Oh well, I guess everybody's got to have a goal in life.

All the best my friend,

Tony

[Wild Card]

Alikn,


FYI. There is quite a bit more to learn about period and postwar copies and who was involved in their production and sale. This is pertinant information when trying to form a better picture of what we collect. Tony

Tony,

This statement really stopped me cold. This is a subject that would really blow things apart. Unfortunately, the posting of relative information would open a can of worms; and I am afraid that such a discussion would degenerate into a mud slinging contest. I do hope however that someday we can get together and compare notes.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[AlikN]

...The man is on a quest. I was trying to gently disuade him from the futility of it before he doned his haircloth robe and set out into the desert for the rest of his life...

...No quest, just a little fan...
...Enjoy your 1870 Grand Crosses..........

[Tiger 1]

Alikn,

Enjoy yours also. It's a nice piece for any collection.

It was indeed fun.

All the best,

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Tony,

This statement really stopped me cold. This is a subject that would really blow things apart. Unfortunately, the posting of relative information would open a can of worms; and I am afraid that such a discussion would degenerate into a mud slinging contest. I do hope however that someday we can get together and compare notes.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Hello Wild Card,

Sorry I jolted you a bit there. But it is a known fact that some surviving companies and individuals that owned a defunct company name or trademark did indeed produce copies post war for collectors. Was it wide spread? Who really knows. But the fact remains that this was indeed so. The same situation exists in the edged weapon field. The situation remains today, but the main players have faded into the shadows.

My point is that collectors should be aware of such realities and keep them in mind when making a judgement about any rare item. Mudslinging or defamation is certainly not my intention. Just a realistic awareness about the existing state of affairs of what we choose to collect. Ultimately we, our individual selfs, are responsible for what we like and what we put into our collections. I am perfectly happy with my period 'copy' examples of items that will never realisticly be offered on the market. If by some unimaginable chance such a real deal actually reaches the collector's market with impecable provenance, my wallet will certainly be way too thin to even entertain a possibility of actually acquiring it.

Somewhere along the way it would be interesting to compare notes. Maybe at one of the 'big' shows sometime.

All the best,

Tony

[Wild Card]

Hi Tony,

Thank you for your response. You did a great job of outlining the situation; I hope that the younger and newer collectors read it.

So that there is no misunderstanding; although we’ve never met, I know you well enough through your posts to know that mudslinging and defamation are not your style. I was afraid that a discussion of such a potentially sensitive topic might degenerate, not by you, like a few others which we have seen recently.

With regard to copies, on more than one occasion I have purposely bought a copy to fill a hole in my collection; and I readily point them out as such. In one case, many years ago I bought a copy of a piece that I thought I would never get. Well, I finally did get the real thing and put the copy up for sale; and a well known collector bought it. I pointed out to him that it was a copy, which was kind of dumb because it was such a bad copy (probably a theatrical piece) that we had a laugh over it; but he didn’t care because he had a hole in his collection and...

I look forward to meeting you at one of the “big” shows (or OMSA?). Yes, it would be most interesting to compare notes.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Tiger 1]

Wild Card,

Thank you for your kind remarks. I appreciate them.

It's always interesting to know that there are other serious collectors that have representative copies in their collections for items that may never be acquired. A long as they are truthfully acknowledged as copies no harm or foul is done. Along that line of thought I have purposely avoided adding an 1813 EKI copie to my collection. I hold a realistic hope that I may be able to find a genuine example for my collection before my time runs out.

When and where is the OMSA convention this year? If not there I have my table for the next SOS already paid for.

All the best,

Tony