Grand Cross

[Bob Hritz]

Yes, Tony, we are becomming old men. I get much more joy out of looking at my collection than in seeing the old guy looking back at me, from the mirror.

Bob Hritz

[Tiger 1]

[Brian S]

Here is the 1814 Grand Cross that Dr. Heinz von Hungen obtained from the family of Prince Leopold of Bavaria, in 1945. Dr. von Hungen had all of Leopolds uniforms, headgear, etc.

Bob Hritz

Very nice Bob.

[Tiger 1]

TTT for Alikn,

Compare the crown details of your JG&S marked GC with the Wagner ones shown here.

All the best,

Tony

[AlikN]

TTT for Alikn,

Compare the crown details of your JG&S marked GC with the Wagner ones shown here.

All the best,

Tony

Thanks Tony, crown looks the same.

[Tiger 1]

We agree on that point.

Now, other questions to consider.

Knowing that Wagner was the known producer of the Grand Cross why then does your JGuS marked GC have the same details? Both core and frame.

Seeing that, one must seriously consider that the Godet markings were added at some point to a Wagner product.

Further questions in need of answers would be why and when were these marks were added.

As always the search for the truth can be convoluted.

All the best,

tony

[AlikN]

Now something wrong with a maker mark ,
Nothing to worry about, it is known that the company exchanging parts or using the same mother dies, look at Godets 1939 EK-1 and Zimmermans, if they are not marked it's hard to point out the maker, and if this mark would be added after assembling the cross that would leave impression on obverse, the maker mark is to dip and there is no any trace on the obverse frame.

P.S. Your 1870 crosses have the same frames and different markings, are any of those were added later?
I also read here on the forum that an other member saw Godet's GC some years ago at show marked like that.

[Tiger 1]

Basically a Wagner style GC with Godet markings. Why?

Yes, the use of a shared EKI by both Godet and Zimmerman during WWII is a known fact. Zimmerman being the accepted manufacturor because both 20 and L/52 marked crosses exist. As far as I'm aware the '39 Godet EKI is only known with the L/50 mark for commercial sales.

I am not so sure that this is the case with a very low production item such as the Grand Cross. We have no evidence of this type of 'marriage of convenience'. Besides, why would Wagner need to share stock of such a limited item? The volume is just not there. Could it of happened? Possible. But the link has not been established.

Stamping the markings on a cross after assembly without leaving an impression on the reverse is certainly possible. If the item to be stamped is properly placed on a hard surface the die will only impress the metal that has some give or displacement. Think about it for a while.

It seems as soon as a question is partialy answered several others can be asked. So goes the joy of discovery in collecting.

All the best,

Tony

[AlikN]

Basically a Wagner style GC with Godet markings. Why?

Because it was assembled on Godet factory.

...As far as I'm aware the '39 Godet EKI is only known with the L/50 mark for commercial sales.

What about all unmarked crosses, are they all Zimmermans?
Do you have or have seen documentation about cooperation of Godet and Zimmerman in WW-2, probably not, all assumptions based on what we see - two the same crosses with different maker marks, sometimes we see it with some pilot badges, para badges - wreath is one company the eagle an other, the same here - why there wouldn't be a cooperation between companies before, and I am sorry but you are wrong about stamping, and I thought about and even tried on sheet of silver with a proper flat steel block, it's a simple physics man, metal has to go somewhere, not possible to do it with out any trace, I tried with a solid sheet, but the cross is two thinner sheets with a lead solder between, you will do even more damage to it, if you have any repo three piece construction EKs practice on them, but remember there is also suspension ring on GC which will get on the way, ring is thicker than a frame would be hard to get it on a flat surface, have to have a special die to be able to rest only flat part of the frame, ... to complicated just to add a couple of marks to already a period cross, doesn't make sans and if someone would try to make a mark, why go for 835 so much easier to make 800 and it's more common.....
...You can believe in what you want to believe, I believe in what I see and I see no evidence whatsoever that the maker marks were added later on.

[AlikN]

....I am not so sure that this is the case with a very low production item such as the Grand Cross....

...and we have four different strikes so far of 1914GC, four different companies made crosses for only five guys.
When the award was instituted no one knows how many people will get an award, five or ten and how many copies each recipient would like to get, if at least four companies made parts why there wouldn't be a companies like Godet or some others, who doesn't want to spend time and money to cut new dies for something that they not going to make much, but would like to have it in their stock, stores, display cases. So they buying parts and assembling awards or using other company mother dies to make their own dies.

Tony is there any markings on ribbon loops of your 1870-GCs?

[AlikN]

Here are the closeups of the top, is there anything suspicious you see there that is telling you that the marks were added later on?

[Tiger 1]

Because it was assembled on Godet factory.

You are stating a fact here my friend. Do you have proof? Are you sure that it was not made by and sold after the war (WWII) by Dr. Kleitmann's wife who happened top own the Godet trademark?


What about all unmarked crosses, are they all Zimmermans?
Do you have or have seen documentation about cooperation of Godet and Zimmerman in WW-2, probably not, all assumptions based on what we see -

No proof here on my part but basing the conclusion on what is accepted by today's collectors given the identical construction of bf the L/50 (Godet) and the 20, L/52 (Zimmerman) products.


...You can believe in what you want to believe, I believe in what I see ........

It's not so much about beliefs that make something true , it is what is true that makes it so.

All the best,

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Here are the closeups of the top, is there anything suspicious you see there that is telling you that the marks were added later on?

What is stamped under the 935 mark in the rectangle?

Tony

[Tiger 1]

...and we have four different strikes so far of 1914GC, four different companies made crosses for only five guys.


*******This apparent glut of makers other than Wagner strongly suggests that they are indeed copies. Please keep in mind that these GC sized awards were also used on Imperial poletops of unit standards of those regiments that were awarded the Iron Cross.


When the award was instituted no one knows how many people will get an award,........


*******The Grand Cross was a very special award to have been given to the recipients who had a major effect on the course of a major battle or the war. If the totals given out in previous incarnations such as the 1813 and the 1870 are an indicator it was well known that few would be ultimately awarded.


... if at least four companies made parts why there wouldn't be a companies like Godet or some others, who doesn't want to spend time and money to cut new dies for something that they not going to make much, but would like to have it in their stock, stores, display cases. So they buying parts and assembling awards or using other company mother dies to make their own dies.

*******Two parts to consider here.

*******When were these other crosses made? Were they period or were they much later.

*******The fact that we have four seperate examples shown only provides us with four examples compressed into today's time frame. When were they actually made? This is the most pertinant question. We do know that Dr. Kleitmann's wife owned the Godet and I believe the Juncker trademarks in the post WWII years and that she did indeed sell newly made decorations of the old patterns to the collector market. Major companies also fed this collector market with awards that they never made during the original period. For example S&L copies of the PLM. The fact that these nice copies exist is not in doubt, just the time of manufacture.


*******And as I asked before why would Wagner choose to share it's market of these limited awards? After all these companies were not just making these decorations for sheer enjoyment. They, as any business, were producing a product to make a profit. It would stand to reason the more limited the product the less likely a company would inclined to share it's manufacturing capability with it's competitors. Basic business sense.

Tony is there any markings on ribbon loops of your 1870-GCs?

No, there are none.

All the best,

Tony

[AlikN]

What is stamped under the 935 mark in the rectangle?

Tony

What do you mean under, like stamp over stamp - double-stamp or you see an other stamp below 835?