The 1870 Repitition Clasp

[Kraal]

Let's study the 1870 Repition clasp.

I´ll post some pics of the Wiederholungsspange out of the SDA-Forum. I guess that shouldn´t be a problem, if so, just tell me and I will erase them from this board.

[Kraal]

Another.

[Kraal]

And another one.

[Kraal]

Questionable Piece.

[Don D.]

I've split these off from the EK thread as they are their won subject and deserve a dedicated thread. If we determine they are originals I will add this thread to the EK Database.

[gregM]

Thanks for adding the pictures. But I have a question.

How do we know that these are the "real deal"? I agree that they
are different from the ones that many of us own but what makes these
the originals? I've seen a half dozen different examples over the years
and none could be proofed to be original.

[Kraal]

Here are another few pics from SDA.

[Kraal]

Actually I can´t tell if a WHS is real or not.

Personally, from my point of view at the moment, I´d go for this: relativly flat corned part, thin frame around the corned part, ek without enamel. The Wagner pieces are those that are among the most questioned pieces. Some are claimed to be real, some are declared to be fake.

Often pieces with round clasps are considered fake, while those with "sharp" clasps (#1, 2, 8) are considered to be real. Another variant of those with needle exist (#4, 7). I for me, can´t really tell the difference on such pieces and find it hardly questionable to answer questions on these items without the possibility of proving if the spange is silver or not, as Wagner pieces are said to be made from silver.

For a save bet I´d go for pieces like #1 (upper cross), 3 and 9. But that´s just me. As already said, I couldn´t tell the differences on all those Wagners and I guess it comes down to personal belief which of those is a real piece and which one is fake. If anyone has more informations than me, I´d be glad if these were shared

For all of you guys who are able to read german, just send me a PM with your email address and I´ll send you an article (2 pics) from Peter Sauerwald and Claus Zimmerling about WHS and fakes. Can´t guarantee anything from this article is true or proved, tough.

[LeeJ]

Good idea Andy but the question has already came up "how do we really know" I took some pictures of my setup as promised and will be posting them shortly.

[jwburchell]

Thank you very much Andy for opening this study.

Forgive me for trying this again, in spite of the fact that my WHS has already been seen and commented upon in my thread here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=487795

I am motivated to do so based upon your indication above that "The Wagner pieces are those that are among the most questioned pieces" and that "... it comes down to personal belief which of those is a real piece and which one is fake".

I have removed my WHS from the ribbon and taken the following pictures to add to this study. One way or the other, it may help to have a record for future reference in this thread...and I am prepared to accept whatever the inevitable determination might be....but if mine is definitely not good, it would be helpful - and perhaps a bit consoling - to know why not.

Thanks in advance to all for any feedback and input, which is appreciated.

John

[jwburchell]

Reverse views:

[Biro]

I'll add a few of my observations over the years to this thread and then I'm out.

It's almost an exercise in futility, as when you don't have a bona fide 100% guaranteed original to reference, it comes simply down to faith and logic.

Following is a few comments and observations I made on another forum some years ago regarding the most common of all the 1914 WHS, the one usaully (but not always) marked "JOH.WAGNER & SOHN" and "moon, crown and 8OO BERLIN.W" on the reverse. Most forum members here (including myself) who own one can expect their's to be of this type.

In a nutshell, I beleive these to be fake, based purely on the frequency with which they are available, usually (but not always) attached to the ninth bead fake EK2 and a set of 25 oaks. They are well made and conform to the style we expect in a WHS.

Here's what I wrote back then and how to identify them....

[Biro]

To briefly explain, a while ago I started compiling images submitted by forum members both here and on WAF so I could study the detail of some of our collective examples and try and form some sort of opinion for myself. Was there an obvious footprint to a fake...?? Were there similarities or glaring differences in the various samples I collected..?? Hell, I even bought one off ebay for the princely sum of 300 Euro so I had another one in hand after my first one went back to the dealer.

I have a good dozen reasonable images of all your pieces.... yes...YOU.... and the first thing I should state is that as far as I am concerned, the obverse characteristics are identical. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I am 99.9% positive that each and every one of you with a Weiderholungsspange marked with moon crown and 800 have these features to the obverse of your pieces.

The infamous 'cats paw' and the distinctive 'curved line' pattern....

Go on - check 'em so we're all on the same page here...

[Biro]

So that was that - the obverses of all our pieces were identical... the crowns and dates matched, the little pearls used to replicate beading matched, right down to the pebbling. All identical.

But then I saw this...... A finishing oversight or the mark of a fake??

The ones on the left have NO 'flare' to the outer edge of the central cross, the ones on the right DO!!

[Biro]

I expected that once I took a look at the reverse, it would become obvious whether flared or flat was the one to go for....

Naturally, that was far from the case........

A compilation of our collective maker marks - check the amazing variation in the formation of the Moons, the shape of the J's, the spacing between letters or words, and the missing 'periods' on some of these examples... etc... etc...