The 1870 Repitition Clasp

[Biro]

And just to confuse matters further, I decided to rule out ALL the moon crown 800 marked pieces as fake because SOOOOO many of us had them. They were all over ebay, attached to fake 1870 EK2's, etc...

But that would be unfair to the Wagner made '25 year railway badge' which is a totally authentic period piece and yet has EXACTLY the same type of marking to the reverse...

[Biro]

But then we see fake Imperial Grand Crosses which are also marked the same way...

[Biro]

So that's it for me. Although I own one, I don't touch and do not beleive in ANY 1914 WHS marked 'Joh Wagner & Sohn moon crown 800'

[streptile]

S I don't touch and do not beleive in ANY 1914 WHS marked 'Joh Wagner & Sohn moon crown 800'

Hi Marshall,

Thank you very much for the excellent summary. I am in total agreement with you that all "Wagner" WHS pieces marked with a moon/crown mark are recent forgeries (as you well know).

Also, I don't believe I have ever seen a WHS with the same exact mark as that seen on a Railway Badge. The same symbols, yes. But not the same stamp.

Also, honest dealers sell them as fakes for about €200, and they have routinely flunked COAs from Detlev Niemann and others.

[Biro]

I also own two others, both different from each other as well.

One of which is the WHS in post number 2 of this thread (see below) which I bought some years ago.

It is marked JOH. WAGNER & SOHN but does not feature the moon crown 800 designation and the obverse pebbling is totally different to the ''cat's paw'' type. Geissler features it in his book and I have a great deal of faith in it. You very seldom see them and many advanced collectors seem to consider them highly likely candidates..

[Biro]

Here is the Sauerwald article mentioned earlier.. I'm not sure I agree with the REASONS for his conclusions, but each to their own..

I now officially have NOTHING more to add on the subject of the bl@@dy 1914 WHS!!

Bye.

[gregM]

Thanks Marshall

[Don D.]

Yes, thanks Marshall. One question wrt your posts. How do we know all those Railroad Worker's badges are real? Since we assume they are, that makes that particular maker mark a "proof" by which we judge other marks on other items.

[Biro]

Yes, thanks Marshall. One question wrt your posts. How do we know all those Railroad Worker's badges are real? Since we assume they are, that makes that particular maker mark a "proof" by which we judge other marks on other items.

Sorry Don - I'm not quite understanding your question? Can you re-phrase it?

[Don D.]

"But that would be unfair to the Wagner made '25 year railway badge' which is a totally authentic period piece and yet has EXACTLY the same type of marking to the reverse..."

How do we know these are authentic?

[Biro]

"But that would be unfair to the Wagner made '25 year railway badge' which is a totally authentic period piece and yet has EXACTLY the same type of marking to the reverse..."

How do we know these are authentic?

I certainly am not aware of any controversy over the authenticity of the Railway Badges although I will confess it's certainly not my field!

My point was more that the style of marking on the railway badges (e.g. Joh Wagner on top, moon crown 800 on the bottom, all equi-distant and neatly symmetrical) is exactly the style used on the WHS with the same markings, so there was certainly a precedent set by Wagner for maker marking their product in this fashion. It was a momentary 'positive' amongst a sea of negatives for the WHS with the cats paw.

Which was all well and good until you study the markings on the 25 yr railway in
close comparison with that on the WHS and realize they are not from the same tool, whereas the markings on the fake Imperial Grand Cross posted above are - IMO - from exactly the same stamping device. And that is pretty damning...

I hope that's clarified it?

[Don D.]

I follow you. I just would like to establish an iron clad benchmark.

[LeeJ]

Just thought I would post this here for reference, disection, conversation etc

[LeeJ]

2

[LeeJ]

3