Godet EK1 and EK2 core and frame variation:

[streptile]

That is just an assumption on my part, not based on any proof as is alot of things in this tread.

I agree that there are a ton of unsubstantiated assertions in this thread, so read carefully, all who dare.

As for the capabilities of Godet to cast cores -- yes, I understand they did have an iron foundry, too.

[Montgomery Burns]

Regarding the cores, the assumption they were often bought by other makers is important and most probably right, while I'm convinced Godet was at least able to make iron cores. They had the tools to cast iron, while many other makers did not.

I look at it this way ...

iron sand casting is a thing that is in its workmanship, a on its own standing craftsmanship ...very specialised
you not just start that in you're own business and start producing high quality iron cores within a year as we see at 1870 /1895/1914

if a jeweller needs it ,sure a jeweller wil have the possibility in-house.
if there is a good market fore it .
but it is not a small investment .

and only fore a few hundred Iron crosses ?
I don't know ...

other possibility is ,,,

jewellers buying other broke jeweller stores was normal at the time ..

so I think

Godet wood Also be able to take over a small metal producer fore its own needs .

Wy not ...combining it with pressing systems (and the big machinery coming with it) fore coin like medals ....and other stuff from metal fore Army needs
wood be smart business undertaking .
and you're buying the workers craftsmanship to

you can sell to other jewellers . there you go

around 1914 I think that way it wood pay off very big .

don't have to mention 1939

don't have to be Godet ,But looking at the core sharing off period 1870 /1914,

I just know something like that must have being going on .

.

[streptile]

Hi Kay,

I applaud your pursuit of answers, and I can see that you have been careful to note where you are stating an opinion rather than a fact, which is important.

We know that Godet had an in-house foundry from some period literature. I can't remember exactly which source, but I'm sure Sascha or Mike will know. Maybe Louis Schneider?

I suspect that Godet may not have made any cores after 1914 simply because their cores are used in many other makers' crosses, and they themselves used other cores (slant-W) that are indeed more common in other makers' crosses. Also, Godet 1939 cores are really just Zimmermann cores. So I believe it is possible that Godet made their own sand-cast cores in 1870 and perhaps early in the Great War, but then purchased their later cores from other companies. I should be careful to note that this is entirely speculative.

[gregM]

Another assumtion on my part------------

Godet started business in 1761. I think that between 1761 and 1871,
they probably would have learned how to cast their own cores if needed.

[Montgomery Burns]

Kay, what makes you think that cross was made after 1930?
What are the distinguishing characteristics?

looking at the cross off Douglas ...

I see a core that is so nicely smoothly flat ,,,( mirror flat )
it must have being made with very high quality tools ( pressed core I think in this case )

not only that ,,the metal must have being highly fine tuned to in its properties
( alloy ) to get that kind off nice result .

the same you see with 1939 swastika cores .

looking at the paint ads some Moore suspicions in to the 1930 direction .

by the look off the picture ,I suspect the cross made from the same material as the swastika crosses off the time 1939 /45
but that can be just the picture



but ,,its only my judgement by the thing I know ,,,I can be completely wrong .

its only the way I wood judge this cross

there is nothing scientific on it ,,,just a ( old crows ) opinion .

but I like how we discuss this matter very much.
very positive and constructive

.

[Montgomery Burns]

Hi Kay,

I applaud your pursuit of answers, and I can see that you have been careful to note where you are stating an opinion rather than a fact, which is important.

We know that Godet had an in-house foundry from some period literature. I can't remember exactly which source, but I'm sure Sascha or Mike will know. Maybe Louis Schneider?

I suspect that Godet may not have made any cores after 1914 simply because their cores are used in many other makers' crosses, and they themselves used other cores (slant-W) that are indeed more common in other makers' crosses. Also, Godet 1939 cores are really just Zimmermann cores. So I believe it is possible that Godet made their own sand-cast cores in 1870 and perhaps early in the Great War, but then purchased their later cores from other companies. I should be careful to note that this is entirely speculative.

hope we find the info one day ,,,

but what you say is exactly WY I pursuit advertisement and other document from jewellers and producers.

just to find real answers to what we discuss here ...

I sell my most valuable ek's to finance that gaol .

so far no result

[Montgomery Burns]

and again ,,i rely love the nice and friendly tone off this discussion.

Its rely a enjoyment to be a part off this thread

.





.

[saschaw]

We know that Godet had an in-house foundry from some period literature. I can't remember exactly which source, but I'm sure Sascha or Mike will know. Maybe Louis Schneider?

Maybe Mike can, but I cannot remember the source... but I almost tend to think it was from an advertising!

Anyhow, Godet could cast iron - that is a puzzle piece we have.

If they die strucked the later cores - who knows. The standard "Godet" core is found, as we know, amung others in "G" and "R" crosses. By the way, I think "R" is rather Rosenthal & Sohn from Berlin than Rösner from Dresden...

[streptile]

Here we go, from Mike Estelmann's BDOS article on the 1870 EK2:

...We may now conclude that Godet either made, or had made, Type B cores. An interesting corollary may be found in secondary literature. In Friedhelm Heyde's standard Iron Cross reference book on the collection of Max Aurich, published in 1980, the author writes about recipients of the 1813 Iron Cross who received their awards after the end of the Napoleonic Wars:

"Whether the casting of the iron cores was accomplished in the Kgl. Preuß. Eisengießerei Berlin (Gleiwitz) or at the iron foundry of the respected manufacturer of religious jewelry, Godet, has not been conclusively established."

This means, of course, that Godet did have the means at their disposal to make the iron cores themselves...

So Sascha, why Rosenthal & Sohn rather than Rösner?

[Douglas 5]

Thanks Kay :
From some features that are simmular to 39 made crosses I was leaning twords a early WW2 made piece . Not well noticable do to dirt/darkened on the top- but the frame was lacquered and beading was frosted . Was hoping for it to 44x44 in size - but it is a bit smaller . That was one of my questions - of these smaller frame This core looks oddly different as the "1's"versions being used beyond 39 . This core looks oddly different ... as the "1's" have very little to no 'upstroke' on them...almost 'mutilated' ??? This peticular core as show on the following pictures - I wounder - if it has been found on other Imperial crosss or 39/45 type ones ?
Thses picture are a bit better. I can make any other reqeusts if needed.

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

More:

[Douglas 5]

More:

[Douglas 5]

Last 2 showing the actual color as close as possible :

[Montgomery Burns]

tip ,,go and research the dealer sites fore 1914/1939 bars

you will find this cross

in the end it dos not matter at all wen this cross was manufactures

all being said is only assumption

it is interesting to see another's opinion , you can learn a lot from it
but there are just as much off different opinions as there are members here .

only fore some rely rare occasions here on WAF with known and found facts

I never saw documents , listings or accounts supporting and consolidating anything that has being said here
also the BDSO and book and writers are assuming a lot Moore then proving by documents .

with to much peace's missing
we all are trying to use experience logic and old medals to put a puzzle together in the dark.


to give you an example look at the picture below ..
who knows how the ek 1914 and 1870 made by Paul Küst looks ?
its not even recognised as manufacture off iron crosses ...1914/1870


start looking fore these ek's , talking about challenge and a learning process


regards kay..

[saschaw]

Here we go, from Mike Estelmann's BDOS article on the 1870 EK2:

Ah, great!

So Sascha, why Rosenthal & Sohn rather than Rösner?

Just as Rosenthal is in Berlin, as Godet is, and as I believe "R" to be an early maker. Early crosses were made mainly in Berlin, regarding the 1st class: until 1916/17 only(!) in Berlin, so I tend to think there's at least a tendence as well with the 2nd classes.

What is the "R = Rösner" thing based on? I guess on nothing. It's from our great list...