Godet EK1 and EK2 core and frame variation:

[Douglas 5]

Just got my first WW1 cross a Godet EK2 . Having it in hand now able to do proper comparison to the ones in the pinned files here .
Frame seams to match posted examples but the core absolutly not ?????
Even the cores on the examples do not match . The question : Did the Ek1s have a different core from the EK2s ? Over which time span were they made ? Can one identify war time pieces to post war ?
To start with the comparison below .

Douglas

[Montgomery Burns]

first

you're cross is photographed under an angle ,,,

and ,what influence the paint on you're cross has on the appearance ?

but to give you an answer...

I am 100 % convinced the jewellers made not there own ek iron cores ,,,
they ordered them at specialised iron factory's and producers of iron work

this core you see can be the second (or even Moore version) off new tools with the same design ..

godet made these crosses throe WW2 even ......so

most off the ek's godet you see are in my opinion 1920 /30 /40
especially the one's with hooks

kay

[gregM]

Just for the sake of argument ----------

We know that Godet offered 1870 Ek1 crosses with hooks. So even
assuming that the 1870 with hooks was a post war (1870) or Jubilee
piece wouldn't that still mean that they could have also offered a 1914
with hooks throughout the 1914-1918 war years?

[Douglas 5]

Thanks Kay : Imperial crosses are new to me so.... I am at the starting stage here . The 2 crosses shown here are from the WMA files and think belong to Ek-collector and Alex ?? Just doing the actual first pictures of my own yet .

So the manufacturing of imperial crosses goes beyond the 1914 - 1918 years .
Anyway determning these core variations to a time periode or in any sequence ?
In the mean time I have found in 2 houirs 4 different cores now on marked crosses - more could be possible yet over time. The 2 shown here and 2 I will put up soon . Do I assume correctly that any crosses made ... lets say just for now after 1919 were all 'replacement' crosses for lost and damaged crosses . ... and this would go right up to approx May 45 .
The other thing I am curious about is : When Hitler took over power :..... up to Sept 39 were these Imp crosses all the old smaller size still ? At the same time is anything known when the 39 size and style took over - assuming the size change was mandated . Some overlaping I would still think did occure as the change did not happen over night . And taking the question all the way : Established Prewar companies Godet , Juncker , Maybauer , S&L etc ... who all made these replacment pieces during WW2 ? Could this mean : eg: S&L made 2 sizes of the Imp Cross ??

The one pictures below is mine .

Douglas

[gregM]

Ww1 crosses were made up through ww2 and also in a 1957 version.
There was overlap in the sizes. There are many examples of 1914 crosses
made in the larger TR size. There are also examples of 1939 crosses made
using left over 1914 style frames.

About core variations, are you talking just Godet or 1914 cores in general ?
If you mean cores in general, then there are many, many variations. Some
makers are known to use 2,3 or 4 different cores in their crosses.

The fun really begins when you get into the different frame and mounting variations.
Differnt pins, needles, screws and slides. You just gotta love imperial crosses.

[Douglas 5]

Thanks Greg :
Variations in Godet for now , as it was an opportunety buy . I see some 39 cross features on this one which cought my attention and other 1914 features that appear to have been carried over to the 39 design as well .
The trained eyes of experianced members here can see alot more than myself . Anything that can be said about the last cross of mine .
I have not gone over Imp Crosses much ... the bit I have looked around I have not seen the same coating as on mine . Able to confirm the existance of a heavy lacquer coating on the frame consistant as found on early 39 crosses . --- Now were Imperial crosses lacquer coated ? Is this known ? Or is this Godet EK2 of mine .. WW2 made ??? the large yellow sections can be seen on the cross keeping the silver from tarnishing . post 4 .

Douglas

[streptile]

Hi Douglas,

Godet used 2 different core designs that I am aware of. The "Godet" core, shown in the top two crosses and in yours, is
one. The other core Godet used is the so-called "slant-W" core. It is less common that the standard core. I agree with Kay
that Godet probably made no cores themselves. For this reason the "Godet" core is usually written with " " around
it -- used in Godets, but not necessarily made by Godet. Both the "Godet" core and the "slant-W" core are often found
in other makers' crosses.

The difference between the cores shown in your first post, and the one in your cross, is simply that yours appears
to be an earlier, sand-cast version, while the top two are stamped sheet metal. Both types are known, but the design is
substantially the same. Hard to say for sure that yours is cast as the photos of your cross are quite poor, and there is no
reverse. I believe the cores shown in post 1 are the same.

I believe, for the reason Greg mentioned among others, that both the 'G' marked Godet EKs and the luxury versions
(side-hooks, oval-shaped screwbacks) were made both during and after the war, with only the 'G' versions being awarded.

Not all crosses made after 1919 were replacement crosses, as actual awards were made right through Weimar.

[Douglas 5]

I am not refering to the Design Types with the straight and slanted W .... but the working or striking dies which show differences as illustrated in the first post .
First batch of pictures did not turn out good .
A possible earlier cross with lacquered frame ? Will redo them tomorrow .
Until then the G marked cross with a strange lopsided frame and core corner ??
Why is the one corner pushed in so far ? The core had to be trimmed to let the frame move in so far? Or are we looking a ta fake maybe ?

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

2 more pictures of this straight W core variant ;

[Montgomery Burns]

no that is not a fake ,,,,,

it is what I often see as the 1930 and beyond crosses

[Montgomery Burns]

as fore the godet theory


I have side hook Godet with hook ,,,
one thing that shows very clearly
is the the signs off wear all over it .

theoretical those type off Godet crosses are not only rare showing up .
but mostly all off them showing a lot off signs off wear . and repairs and modifications

to me those are field crosses ,,
bulkier fore the showing off off them .
and hooks fore the rougher terrain they where worn and used .

fore the ek side hook Godet 1914

the side hooks are razor sharp ,,so sharp you can push throe cloth as easily as a modern needle ...
pulling it out you can almost see no hole says a lot about how sharp they are

well everything worn is never to be sharp as that ..

a lot off these side hook crosses are missing all signs off wear ..
almost all look beautiful ...with the W and crown missing some paint
but in good shape
that seem to be the standard looks off them .

but it dos not mean I believe that Godet dint pick up the old design off side hooks soon after the beginning off the war....and there are no war time Godet side hooks

but these are moore used fore parade uniforms

or not at all ,,,,, as being not so popular I think

ending up unsold in stocks in the firm off Godet ,

from time to time sold ,,until the last one where handed out and sold 1939/42/43

but that is only my way off looking at it ,,,and only fore the Godet side hook variant 1914

based on what I see and have hold in my own hand ...
but that is only the narrow picture I have at the moment.
so it dos not have to be correct 100%

but I am very ,very Happy some collectors are recognizing that Godet may not be making iron cores themselves
its a very important start ...

take the slanted W core used by off Deutscher offiziers verein (and a lot off other jewellers to )....lay it beside a regular Godet core

and look only at manufacturing details ,,( hight off W and crown and date )
(sharpness off details ) (paint similarities )

maybe you agree with me that these two cores are made ( maybe can be made ) by the same manufacturer

regards kay




.

[Douglas 5]

Interesting Kay ...... I see a more open thinking and functional approach by manufacturers during this time periode to make the award wear and fit better . Not like during the 39/45 time periode where one had a list of : "Cannot have or do nots ..."ect . Sandblasted frames ... any time periode they fall in ?

Douglas

[streptile]

it is what I often see as the 1930 and beyond crosses

Kay, what makes you think that cross was made after 1930?
What are the distinguishing characteristics?

[saschaw]

Regarding the cores, the assumption they were often bought by other makers is important and most probably right, while I'm convinced Godet was at least able to make iron cores. They had the tools to cast iron, while many other makers did not.

[gregM]

I agree that Godet probably had the capabilities of casting their own
cores. I have always thought that the "short7" or type B 1870 core
was Godet's attempt at producing their own 1870 core after the Berlin
foundry was shut down.

That is just an assumption on my part, not based on any proof as is alot of things in this tread.