1870 EK1 'I' Wagner...Opinions..?

[Bobby lee]

Reverse

[Bill M]

--This obverse is a spot-on match for the J Wagner 14 Lotig on page 113 of the Iron Time. The cross has been condemned by DN* and I agree with him at least in that that particular example is not a good J Wagner - totally different features, but that's a different topic. Funny though, the cased cross on the same page also matches it and I would go so far to say that that case itself is certainly period. Be interesting to know where those examples came from.
*and I don't need any dealer to tell me otherwise.
--How long ago did you get this one, Bobby?

[Bobby lee]

Hi Bill, I had to dig in my records to find the purchase date. June 1973, a dealer in Tampa called me on a set he picked up at an estate sale. I've included the medal group in the attachment. He was sorry to charge me $500 for the group. That was more money in those days. I had picked up a 1870 2nd cl w/ol 2 weeks earlier for $25! 1914 Ic's 2nd were $5, 1st cl were $25. Oh the good ole days when this was not so stressful a hobby!

[Brian S]

I don't know what to say about putting cash down on the first one, but I sure like Bobby Lee's...

Iron Time is a minefield of sorts. It's the greatest history book but not necessarily a gospel on the correct early crosses.

[Bill M]

--What is it you like about Bobby Lee's Cross, Brian?
--I am not disputing originality, but playing Devil's advocate here.
--Those dates are very abnormal and we see a muffin crown, this cross might have been rejected out of hand if posted as a 'Whaddaya think?" thread. Detlev has already written that he wouldn't touch this type in a correspondence with me. Did they fake these back in 73 and sneak them in with a nice grouping? Under the conditions that Bobby relayed here, I doubt it.
--There are three things that must be considered when presented with this cross today:
1) What is it about the cross on 113 (Iron Time) that put Detlev off? The Dates/Crown, the Lotig mark (which he had said had no provinence in his experience) or the fact that it was marked "J Wagner?
2) On that same page there exists a cased cross identical to Bobby's, is that cross marked for maker? Ask SP, someone...
3) Is this the cross that has been so copied and sold on e-bay? Look at the crown and dates, put a J Wagner on it and you have the fake that has soured almost everyone on all J Wagner crosses, even tough the differences between it and "Textbook J's" are like night and day.

[mravery]

Devil's Advocate

Well.. I've been following this thread for a while and it's time for me to add my '2 cents'.....

As Bill mentioned.. playing the Devil's advocate.... now it's my turn.......

Bill stated that Detlev mentioned that he wouldn't touch this style cross..... well...... my question is...... Why not.... where is his 'research'... where is his 'experience' ..... where does he gain his knowledge base from ???? None of this has been explained... nor do I think it will.... Does anyone even know how old some of these dealers are.... I bet there are collectors on this site that have been collecting this stuff longer than most of these guys have been alive ! Especially the Imperial stuff...... that was collected in the 60's and 70's... when no one cared about Imperial at all.....

I have been collecting militaria for a long time... not as long as some of you... but still.. a long time.... and one thing that I have noticed is how a 'comment' can become a 'gospel'....

One dealer at a show... can make a comment or tell a story about an item...... then it gets told again but one of his 'followers'..... and then again... and then again.. until finally... it has become the truth.. .WITH NO BASIS FOR IT OTHER THAN A DEALERS COMMENT OR B.S. STORY.........

If you want to prove this to me.... then I need to see period documentation, sales literature...... original photographs.... something other than a dealers opinion...... otherwise.. it needs to stay just that... 'the opinion of a DEALER'

Come on guys... think about the comments that are being made here....... where is the basis for the truth....... or here is a thought..... We are all human... and we all will die sometime..... what will happen when the 'speakers of the gospel' die ????? Then who will you be able to quote..... or will everyone just stop collecting at that point ?????

Well.. anyway... that was my 'soap box' comment... I shall now yield the floor

Cheers
Mark

[Brian S]

I don't think Bobby Lee is putting is on regarding the purchase date. It just looks too good to be a 60's or 70's fake '70 cross. Nothing more than that. I was around then and stuff was so cheap. The highend items were being copied well not these low end Franks & Beans War items.

[Tony & Kaiser]

I have to buy it TOMORROW!! ...or I lose it.

Biro, Today is now yesterday's tomorrow. What did you decide?

[Biro]

Tony

I've gone for it - at least for the inspection period, and so I can get better photo's of the important bits out to you guys....I bet you can't wait......

Since Dealer Opinions appear to be 'off the menu' - I think I'm gonna need to enlist a real professional....

[Blitz]

Good choice Biro! Here we have the ultimate expert.

[Biro]

Mark...

Thanks for your input - noted and respected,...and here's why it matters to ME what Detlev thinks....

I'm not personally 'connected' in the militaria world, so I have two options...

1) I buy a cross that, while certainly no TEXTBOOK example,

a) Appears in the (floored but valuable?) Iron Time...
b) Appears to have the 'correct' m/markings...
c) Is not a 'known fake', to the best of my knowledge..(please advise otherwise by 9.00 pm YESTERDAY!)
d) Has the approval (or otherwise!) of a very respected Militaria dealer...?

2) I buy a cross, but I don't do any of those things..

To get an OPINION from Detlev Niemann will simply be another valuable 'tool' in MY journey to find a 'keeper'....I don't have many options.

I would, however, WELCOME the opinion of you as a collector on the crosses pictured here...

Cheers...

[Brian S]

100% sound logic Biro. Will this come with a money back guarantee at any time if it's found out to be a repro?

[Biro]

100% sound logic Biro. Will this come with a money back guarantee at any time if it's found out to be a repro?

Brian

A short(ish) one ...so BELEIVE ME, you haven't heard the last of this...

And for the record, I'm not holding my breath on this one...more curious...

Cheers..

Marshall..

[Tiger 1]

Hey Biro,

When you get this EK can you please measure and weigh it for my records? One other thought that I would like to interject; Are you interested in this EK as an original award piece or a later Imperial era duplicate? I don't believe this question has been posed. Something to seriously consider given the very low numbers of award pieces.

After all our collective opinions and comments I think that in the end you are the one that has to make the final determination. Whether you will want it in your collection and be comfortable with it or whether you send it back.

Good luck!

Tony

[Biro]

Hey Biro...When you get this EK can you please measure and weigh it for my records?...

DONE!!

Are you interested in this EK as an original award piece or a later Imperial era duplicate?

I'm not sure anyone would go as far as to say an original award piece.....but with that Maker Mark, to have it in hand is important for one reason or another. It'll cost me some postage, but we'll all have learn't something.

The amount of these awarded GNAWS away at me, but then so too does the fact that someone much better informed than me chose to photograph it and put it in his book...and I want to find out why.

Good luck!

REQUIRED!!

Thanks mate...

Marshall