1870 EK1 'I' Wagner...Opinions..?

[Tony & Kaiser]

Look how awful that 70's Wiederholungsspange was compared to the real one in the details. This just doesn't look like 60's or 70's repros.

I agree. Older copies, and even some current copies, tend to be of poor quality or made very different from period pieces. But why can this EK1 be accepted as a variation while the 1870 EK2 in Eric's thread is not? In that thread, the EK2 deteriorated from a "1870 EK2 variant" to a "Spot the 1870 EK2 fake" based on ONE photo with NO explanation from ONE person; Detlev.

Not to say this man is not highly educated in this area, but if it is not what he believes to be the standard pattern, and he posts a photos as "copy" why do most accept that as gospel? What happens when one of these shows up in a family group? If iron core silver framed near -perfect EK "fakes" have been around for 20 years, they should be everywhere, but they are not. For the record, I have bought from Detlev and I will continue to do so as I trust him as a seller. However, I will make up my own mind on what is, or is not, a legitimate item.

Biro, didn't mean to hijack the thread, I like the EK you posted based on what I have learned here in the Forum, although I could never afford it!

[Brian S]

I think that EK2 just showed up at a show and was offered from a Santa Floch's Bag to dealers. Or someone just like him. My guess... If it's construction, then I am missing something. I keep looking at this picture I have can't help but notice how BEAUTIFUL this EK1 is. Just looks perfect even in this not so perfect photo. If anything, I expect MORE detail and perfection in these EK's.

[Brian S]

Just seems to shine.

[Biro]

Biro, didn't mean to hijack the thread....Tony

A hi-jack was inevitable..I think we're all kind of 'opinioned out' on 1870 EK's...

And for the record, I LOVE Erics EK2, regardless of the period - I just wish we could clarify if by 'COPY' Detlev means later issue pretending to be 'period era' - or out-right fake....

Then at least, the speculation wouldn't be so damning on an otherwise great looking piece..

[Biro]

Just seems to shine.

BRIAN!!!


It's a perfect match!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eric Stahlhut]

Brian,


The Ek1 pictured above looks so nice there is a remote chance that it may even be a 'Glassfluss' core variant or perhaps an onyx core variant. Look how it jumps out at you in comparison with the rest of the gentleman's gear...the crown, W, and numerals seem to be finished in silver.

[Brian S]

So there really is an Onyx and Glassflux example? Yes, I was totally amazed how it just leaps out. Now wouldn't THIS be a gem to find.

I thought the W and crown in silver also.

[Eric Stahlhut]

So there really is an Onyx and Glassflux example?

I thought the W and crown in silver also.

Oh, absolutely!

Weitze had two 1914 glass core examples for sale last year. The EK1 was cased (from a jeweler out of Leipzig, I believe) and had a huge chip on the core. The EK2 was in great shape. They sold in a matter of days for a combined total of around $1000.

It is frightening to consider how much an 1870 version would command in today's market...

[Biro]

Wonderful idea for a new thread boys, seriously!....but....ehh-erm.....

I have to buy it TOMORROW!! ...or I lose it.

[Tim Tezer]

Not to say this man is not highly educated in this area, but if it is not what he believes to be the standard pattern, and he posts a photos as "copy" why do most accept that as gospel? What happens when one of these shows up in a family group? If iron core silver framed near -perfect EK "fakes" have been around for 20 years, they should be everywhere, but they are not. For the record, I have bought from Detlev and I will continue to do so as I trust him as a seller. However, I will make up my own mind on what is, or is not, a legitimate item.

I'm with you on this, Tony. I like Detlev, and I trust him more than any other dealer out there. I agree with most of his assessments of what's real and what's not, but ultimately it's my responsibility to know for myself. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no substitute for having your OWN knowledge and experience to work from.

Sorry if this is off topic.

Tim

[Tim Tezer]

Wonderful idea for a new thread boys, seriously!....but....ehh-erm.....

I have to buy it TOMORROW!! ...or I lose it.

Now back to the topic: This piece just doesn't exactly match the awarded Wagner types, but it could be a later piece. Maybe, if the J. Wagner types are legit, this is a transitional type between the original issue pieces and the "J" pieces. For my money (which isn't much, I'm afriad ), I would rather wait until I had a chance to buy a piece that I was sure of. Even an unmarked private purchase piece, if the details of it and the overall style were convincingly "period" would make me happy, and at a lower cost than a Wagner or Godet awarded type.

That's my two cents.

Tim

[Bill M]

First of all, it is painfully obvious that the photo is of an Onyx EK1 unless the guys grandson painted up the crown and W. Secondly and sadly, period photos just aren't clear enough to be of great help in identifying features. Sometimes something is caught, like date height, but I really haven't gleaned anything much from period photos I've seen.
--Here's a pic with a digital camera taken at about portrait distance, kinda illustrates my point.

[Bobby lee]

I'm sorry guys, but I think it's time for someone to ask what is Detlev's bona fides? Biro says if Detlev blesses an item with a 'COA' it is eaiser to sell later? Who died and gave anyone that kind of power? If that is your decision, then go for it, but I too will reserve my decisions on my 35 years of knowledge and experience. For those new to the hobby or this forum, I suggest you never fully rely on anyone's opinion especially those who sell the stuff. Conflict of interest, pure and simple. Get more than one opinion (as anyone can see on the IC threads, there is a wide band of opinion) Remember, a certain auction house in the mid-west gives 'COA' for a small fee.

[Bill M]

--Look at that 'J' Wagner crown leaping out at you in that photo. It's also letter 'E' on my virtually untouched "Crown Game" thread.
--If Detlev were here, I guarantee you that this 'I' cross would be condemned and the conversation ended. I'd put money on it. I am undecided.
--60's and 70's copies, the catagory in which the particular 'J' types that George and I own would likely fall, were not as advanced as they are now. Modern forgers fvck up the crowns, do you think that forgers from 10, 20 and 30 years ago executed them better?
--This 'I' as a 'transitional' cross occurred to me as well, but realising that this would be more of a justificational tool, I would tend to leave that supposition alone.
--As far as using the Iron Time as a reference for 1870's, I am starting to think that the book is a minefield. There are 1870's (and 1813's) in there that I wouldn't touch with a pole, but not because anyone told me so.
--I am finding that the 1870 field is turning into a witch hunt of sorts - very comparable to the 3rd Reich field. In my opinion, what has been happening on a grand scale over there is just beginning to happen here (looking at the big picture). Of course there were forgeries years ago of 1870's, but the field was also much narrower and the internet as a reference was not around to inform and enlighten as no reference book could. Mass consumption of information has put the forgers on their game.
--I have no problem with Eric's cross.
--Here's a 70's copy 1914...
--I'll be back.

[Bobby lee]

I'm always willing to throw myself into the fray so here is a !st class I listed sometime ago that came with a group I picked up many years ago (1870 IC 2nd's were $25!). It HAS NO MARKS. Just silver and iron with a repaired pin. I like this one better than any of the hallmarked ones. I like the date being larger than the date on 2nd classes. (and I don't need any dealer to tell me otherwise).