1870 EK2 variant?

[Biro]

Tony

Hope this isn't too much of a tangent for the thread, but in your opinion, which of the two crowns posted seems more indicative of a period issue piece...

I'm having a tough time differentiating 'quality' from 'detail' in helping determine award era pieces - many threads here point out that manufacturing standards were not up to much the further back in history you go, while others claim standards were much higher (as indicative of a truly nice 1813 ek2 for example)

I think the 'quality' of Eric's crown is indesputable, while I would say that the 'detail' in the other crown is possibly a little greater...

Does this make sense?

[Brian S]

Some of these crosses do almost look laser cut. I think considering the times up to 1916 a high quality EKII 1870 could have been made. Given the fervor patriotic pitch to that time, it's possible some quality pieces might have been created. It's just the incredibly liimited demand of the full size EKII that draws me away from a logical conclusion. These guys were OLD. What only 900 healthy enough to serve and get their Wiederholungsspange? I'd be much more inclined to see the miniatures and stickpins and think OK quality for the stepping out parties. But these guys RARELY wore full size EK's and as I'll show in a thread when I get back into town, it was the original award.

[Tony & Kaiser]

Tony, // in your opinion, which of the two crowns posted seems more indicative of a period issue piece...

Erk! You are asking the wrong guy if that is directed at me. I have never even touched an 1870. I am trying to learn; Eric, Tony (Tiger 1), Tim, Blitz, and others are much better positioned to comment on that.

Signed.......
Unqualified

[Brian S]

Bottom line on ANY EKII is if it looks good great, BUT, can it be matched to one on an unmessed with medal bar? Any loose EKII is suspect in my opinion. These guys would have at the very very least have mounted it from left;

EKII-1870 Medal-Kaiser Jubilee

So unless they died, and by the numbers of these loose ones around, they all died, I wouldn't expect to see so many loose EKII's-it's not logical captain.

But illogically, Leo got a second one for a medal bar mount and kept his awarded one loose...

[Tony & Kaiser]

Any loose EKII is suspect in my opinion.

Brian, not all soldiers mount their medals. I have see literally many dozens of Great war or second war medals, thrown in the shoe box with a few other souvenirs and the paybook, not mounted. The vet dies, and the family finds the box. I just received two Great War sets like this in the last month. Still in the boxes, and the families want them mounted. The guy just never cared to get them done. I do not see why soldiers of the Franco Prussian war would be any different?

[Biro]

????

[Tim Tezer]

After looking at the photo posted by Biro of one of Detlev's "fake of the week" crosses, I would say 1) the fake Detlev identified is the type I was talking about, emanating from dealers of ill repute, and 2) the piece Eric posted is NOT the same. The details on Eric's piece definitely look very sharp, especially the high relief of the "W" and the numbers. The fakes always have a sort of mushy look to the relief - hard to describe accurately.

In short, I wouldn't be too hasty to pronounce Eric's cross a repro. It may not be a "textbook" early example, but it might very well be a piece made between about 1900 and 1914.

So I put in my two cents, and got one cent change.

Tim

[Blitz]

The details on my 1870 ek2 are modest compared with both of those crowns that Biro posted. And mine is a Wagner&Sohn piece.. The dating is and will always be a problem when looking at pieces this old, especially in 1870's. I never got a strait answer when i asked about the same subject a few months back. Quality is another matter we can dispute about forever if we wan't to. In 1813s the quality gets better as the time progresses, in 1914s it gets worse. In 1870s? I don't know. I think it's a matter that isn't really time-related. At that point manufacturing tecniques were at it's peak, where quality is concerned. So why would the quality diminish over time, especially during pease-time? When Germany and Prussia were at the at the top of the world? It doesn't make any sence.

[Blitz]

reverse.

[Tim Tezer]

The details on my 1870 ek2 are modest compared with both of those crowns that Biro posted. And mine is a Wagner&Sohn piece.. The dating is and will always be a problem when looking at pieces this old, especially in 1870's. I never got a strait answer when i asked about the same subject a few months back. Quality is another matter we can dispute about forever if we wan't to. In 1813s the quality gets better as the time progresses, in 1914s it gets worse. In 1870s? I don't know. I think it's a matter that isn't really time-related. At that point manufacturing tecniques were at it's peak, where quality is concerned. So why would the quality diminish over time, especially during pease-time? When Germany and Prussia were at the at the top of the world? It doesn't make any sence.

I think the quality was pretty consistent between about 1870 and 1914, except maybe the soldering on the frames become more accurate during that time. But the style of numbers, oakleaves, etc. changed so you could say that the differences between the look of an 1870 Ek and a 1914 Ek was not so much a change, as a developement over time.

Tim

[Brian S]

Dating is not difficult if you know where to look.

[Biro]

Dating is not difficult if you know where to look.

I don't know where to look...

[Brian S]

The details on my 1870 ek2 are modest compared with both of those crowns that Biro posted. And mine is a Wagner&Sohn piece.. The dating is and will always be a problem when looking at pieces this old, especially in 1870's. I never got a strait answer when i asked about the same subject a few months back. Quality is another matter we can dispute about forever if we wan't to. In 1813s the quality gets better as the time progresses, in 1914s it gets worse. In 1870s? I don't know. I think it's a matter that isn't really time-related. At that point manufacturing tecniques were at it's peak, where quality is concerned. So why would the quality diminish over time, especially during pease-time? When Germany and Prussia were at the at the top of the world? It doesn't make any sence.

I'd REALLY like to see some better closeups of this one if possible. This is so much like mine.

Could you email me some high res pics PLEASE?

militaria@comcast.net

I can't make out the maker mark?

[Blitz]

I'll send you the best pics i got very soon, Brian. It's no wonder you can't see the makers mark. It toke me over an year to find it myself.. It's in a place where you tend not to look for it. Btw, did you share your opinion when i asked about the dating, Brian? If you did or do have one, sharing it would be great.

[Blitz]

A bit more closer.