Lauer/lemcke 1870 ek 1

[streptile]

...and here's some photos not currently shown of the 'LL' under discussion, from last year.

[sam steele]

Thanks Trevor,

Marshall believes that this piece is a non-award, as it is vaulted. Marshall also mentioned one other "LL" marked piece. Would that be flat? Could the piece in this thread once have been flat (and "vaulted" later for cosmetic reasons, thereby cracking the core)?. I know that you thought similarily about the bending of the arms.

Please forgive my question, but is the "Type A" core more desireable than the "B" because of it's age and rarity?

I don't doubt the authenticity of this Cross. What I would like to acquire is more information on the 1870 EK 1. No doubt, more info is available in German. I know of Previtera and Prowse...are there other English books that are an accurate resource?

Thanks for the additional pics, especially of the other "LL" marked specimen.
I thought that I'd throw in the old advert for Lemcke, for good measure.

Cheers,

Bill

[Montgomery Burns]

Hi Kay,

You've made a lot of points and asked a lot of questions, so I will try as best I can to answer them all in this post.

You think Weitze's I. Wagner may be a legitimate "variant" because you see no evidence of the pin being removed, and "who knows what is possible." I guess I would only say that, with high-end items, it's nice to see at least one other example of the type you intend to buy. That pin is just so different from any other known type that I can't see an advanced collector being happy with it, which (I guess) is why it's been there for years despite a reasonable price. Plus the pin is horizontal. I agree, though, that otherwise the cross and the mark look ok, so I think a repair is a possibility.

About Beltram's cross. It has sat, unsold, for over 18 months at €1500, where an original Wagner would fetch easily three times that. Do you really think it's ok? I might be inclined to think of that cross as a WWI replacement example, except that such effort has been made to duplicate the Wagner award-style pin. No one would have done that in 1914, given the tremendous problems with that pin to begin with (breakage). I am fairly certain that piece was made (recently) with a good 1914 EK1 and a good Type A core, probably from an EK2.

The archetypal award-type Wagner may be seen on pp. 114-115, The Iron Time, 2nd Ed. (only), with no repairs or damage. This is the ideal of the 1870 EK1, as far as most collectors are concerned. Both Weitze's and Beltram's pieces differ far too much from this ideal to make me comfortable.



I think I said, "the pin looks filed and the catch is either replaced or at least non-standard," which is a long way from "not good." Look, I'm no eMedals groupie, but the tone of your question suggests that it's somehow incorrect to state that, of all the EK1s under discussion, only the J/AWS Wideframe from eMedals is "textbook." But that happens to be the truth, so what can I do? Yes, it is the only truly textbook example we've discussed in this thread.



I don't agree with this at all. It's not a fair interpretation of what I've written, or predicted.

Just so we can have some reference for further discussion, I will show the photos I saved of Detlev's recent 'LL' marked Type B EK1 below.

don't mind the old crow ,,

I learned a lot here today ,,,,,I beware next time .

time change ,,,,,, WAF to




PS ,,the LL was never on my mind as being questionable...









.

[streptile]

don't mind the old crow ,,

No problems Kay .

[Montgomery Burns]

PS,,,,,,the M Bertram ek is in my opinion a Godet

regards ,,the old crow


grhaaaa grhaaa











.

[streptile]

Please forgive my question, but is the "Type A" core more desireable than the "B" because of it's age and rarity?

I think the fact that it was the core used in the award-types explains it.

To be honest it is the most commonly found 1870 EK core, so rarity has nothing to do with it. Also, it was used right up until WWI, so "early" really doesn't have anything to do with it either.

In my opinion, the Type A cores that were used in genuine awarded examples can be distinguished by superior detail to the crown and oakleaf cluster. Later examples -- Jubilee and then WWI examples -- have softer core details. Of course this is not an exact science, and it leaves a lot of room for error, so it must be taken very lightly. I use this only as a very (very) rough guide to assigning a period of manufacture to an 1870 EK. Even more important is the frame used, and any marks.

I think the Type A cores are more sought after because they were the first 1870 cores ever designed, and (frankly) the finest EK core ever designed. The earliest examples have such beautiful detail, and the other construction elements of the early crosses (frame, soldering, pins or jumprings) are so finely done that they just appeal to us as aesthetes.

[Montgomery Burns]

I think the fact that it was the core used in the award-types explains it.

To be honest it is the most commonly found 1870 EK core, so rarity has nothing to do with it. Also, it was used right up until WWI, so "early" really doesn't have anything to do with it either.

In my opinion, the Type A cores that were used in genuine awarded examples can be distinguished by superior detail to the crown and oakleaf cluster. Later examples -- Jubilee and then WWI examples -- have softer core details. Of course this is not an exact science, and it leaves a lot of room for error, so it must be taken very lightly. I use this only as a very (very) rough guide to assigning a period of manufacture to an 1870 EK. Even more important is the frame used, and any marks.

I think the Type A cores are more sought after because they were the first 1870 cores ever designed, and (frankly) the finest EK core ever designed. The earliest examples have such beautiful detail, and the other construction elements of the early crosses (frame, soldering, pins or jumprings) are so finely done that they just appeal to us as aesthetes.

genuine awarded examples can be distinguished by superior detail to the crown and oakleaf cluster. Later examples -- Jubilee and then WWI examples -- have softer core details.


trevor ,,softer detail means Les fine sand used in making the sand based moulds..
as far as aim informed

regards kay

.

[frankandfrank]

I remember that this LL EK on First photo (signed backside) was offerd for 3.800 Euro - 5.000 US $ netto Startprice on Andreas Thies auction!

[FrankS]

The Wagner & Söhne EK 1 on offer from Straube is not textbook. The front side looks OK but on the back side the needle attachment, the needle and the catch/hook are not textbook and not identical to the cross in the Aurich collection which Straube mentions.

Straube EK 1


Max Aurich collection EK 1 shown in Heyde book



The shape of the needle is also incorrect - please see photo.

I'm not saying that the Straube EK 1 is fake, the front side looks very good, but its not textbook. It might be a variation or later production from Wagner & Söhne.

[frankandfrank]

Please look at the new Weitze update:

J.Wagner & S. 14 Löth

https://www.weitze.net/detail/46/Eis...0__147646.html

High price .

[gregM]

It is expensive but when was the last time you saw a
cased Wagner 1870 Ek1.

If I had the money, I would have this cross.

[frankandfrank]

The Weitze piece looks like on the backside as the Straube piece!
Also great different backside to the photo from Heyde book!

[streptile]

The Weitze piece looks like on the backside as the Straube piece!

The Weitze piece is a textbook piece though -- I believe the Straube piece was like Weitze's at one point, but had the pin filed down (as I've noted in this thread before), possibly to more closely resemble the Aurich piece in the Heyde book.

Also great different backside to the photo from Heyde book!

The one for sale at Weitze is sometimes called a Type A1 core, and is very commonly seen with this wide pin type. It's true that Max Aurich did not have one in his collection with that pin, but he does show one with an A1 core.

Two experts (who I respect greatly) disagree about this type with the A1 core and the wide pin; one theory is that it is an early award type, and the other theory is that it was a luxury private purchase type. Honestly I don't know which is correct, but I lean towards the former theory (early award type). However there is no question about its originality or authenticity, or even period of manufacture (award period).

I find the Weitze piece to be very nearly perfect, and very well priced for what it is.

[Montgomery Burns]

The Weitze piece is a textbook piece though -- I believe the Straube piece was like Weitze's at one point, but had the pin filed down (as I've noted in this thread before), possibly to more closely resemble the Aurich piece in the Heyde book.



The one for sale at Weitze is sometimes called a Type A1 core, and is very commonly seen with this wide pin type. It's true that Max Aurich did not have one in his collection with that pin, but he does show one with an A1 core.

Two experts (who I respect greatly) disagree about this type with the A1 core and the wide pin; one theory is that it is an early award type, and the other theory is that it was a luxury private purchase type. Honestly I don't know which is correct, but I lean towards the former theory (early award type). However there is no question about its originality or authenticity, or even period of manufacture (award period).

I find the Weitze piece to be very nearly perfect, and very well priced for what it is.

ohh,,,, yes it is Trevor,,what a treasure isn't

regards kay

[streptile]

ohh,,,, yes it is Trevor,,what a treasure isn't
regards kay

An absolute dream... the case, the core, the patina, the mark. That cross just blows me away.