ek1 fake or 57 replacement?

[Montgomery Burns]

advertisement from 1928/1933/1934/1939

much off it in collections around the world

[Montgomery Burns]

This one can be also a ek after 1924

there is no date on it ,,,what should i do ?

,,,what about ek1870 aws/juncker

what about the ek1870 /1890
not to speak about the ek 1870 sold by deutscher offiziers verein in 1902 ?????

WHAT ABOUT THE EK 1813 /1830 ?

Are they all copy's /fake that should be not collected ??????????????????????????????????????

should we put all these wonderfull crosses in to a fake file and call them copy's ?

[Montgomery Burns]

All iron crosses from 1813 to the 1957
are part off the ek legacy......

As long as they are produced by licensed or known makers off them .
And even UNKNOWN period private purchased ek's are part off it .

And never fake or copy because the war was simply over .
or some official date expired at 1924
or they are a to wild in variation off the standard ek

latvian floch and what ever else there is identified out there are the real copy's and fakes ....











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[ekhunter]

This one can be also a ek after 1924

there is no date on it ,,,what should i do ?

,,,what about ek1870 aws/juncker

what about the ek1870 /1890
not to speak about the ek 1870 sold by deutscher offiziers verein in 1902 ?????

WHAT ABOUT THE EK 1813 /1830 ?

Are they all copy's /fake that should be not collected ??????????????????????????????????????

should we put all these wonderfull crosses in to a fake file and call them copy's ?

Yes, all worrthless copies that I will be willing to take off of anyones hands for a generous pennies on the dollar. PM me, and I will take them all!

[saschaw]

It seems some people here are not able to read.

Uwe did not call them fakes, not even worthless. He called them "copies" as they are not originals. And that's damn right.

How can they be original, made years or decades after they were actually awarded?

So, no need to scream that loud...

[speedytop]

Hi kay,

should we put all these wonderfull crosses in to a fake file and call them copy's ?

No, no! But if you have copies, then put them in a copy file and name them copies.

OMSA:

"Copy" - means a substantially identical duplicate of an authorized medal not authorized by, or under contract to, the issuing entity, which is marked or identified as a copy to prevent confusion with the authorized medal, or otherwise clearly distinguishable from an original, restrike, or re-production. Copies may include contemporary wearing copies, private purchase medals, and collector copies.

I think, that you don't need a fake file, because most of the fakes/forgeries/counterfeits/repros are made in such a good quality, that you (and most of us) think, that these are originals.

OMSA:

"Counterfeit" & “Repro” - means a substantially identical duplicate of an authorized medal not produced by, or under contract to, the issuing entity, which is not marked as a copy or otherwise easily distinguishable from an original, restrike, or re-production and which a reasonable person could confuse with the authorized medal.

"Forgery" - means a medal which has been altered for the purpose of fraudulently increasing its value, for example, by spuriously numbering, naming or renaming a medal, fitting a medal with bars to which the recipient was not entitled, or altering the class of the medal by adding parts, gilding, plating, etcetera.

saschaw, thank you very much!

Uwe

[speedytop]

Before I forget it!

advertisement from 1928/1933/1934/1939

much off it in collections around the world

Yes, so many copies around the world!

I can add a catalogue from the "Kleiderkasse für die Bundeswehr" from 1970, the colored markings are made by me:



Uwe

[Montgomery Burns]

its becoming interesting ..

I know 1939 veterans where in the Bundeswehr a long time

please a picture off the first inner page off the Heeres Kleiderkasse .

want to see the date off you're catalogue...

ek's produced official to 1970 ,,and documented WOW

[speedytop]

Yes, copies were produced for the (civilian) organization "Kleiderkasse für die Bundswehr".

Everybody could produce copies of EK 1914.
In 1925, in 1939, in 1950, in 1970 and in 2010.
And everybody could buy and sell copies, why not?

The civilians in the "Kleiderkasse für die Bundeswehr" could buy and sell originals and copies, just looking for an acceptable price and an acceptable quality.

It is the "Preisliste Nr. 10
Gültig ab 1. September 1970"

And where is your problem?

Uwe

[Montgomery Burns]

NO PROBLEM ,,

just want to be sure

just its time to make some phone calls and find out who the supplier off that organisation was in 1970 .

wood be nice to find out ,,wood it be not ?.








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[streptile]

I'm not sure if this is one of the recent fakes or a ~ 1960s copy by St & L.

They are pretty close...

I am also unsure which it is.

The issue of "copy" vs. "fake" is a matter of semantics. Sascha and Uwe support a precise wording:

• Original (awarded or made during the award time)
• Copy (Made after the award time as a duplicate or replacement)
• Fake (Counterfeit intended to deceive)

In my view it is a very useful nomenclature, but as it is not (yet) universally adopted, it is potentially problematic.

In any case, I would not own the piece that started this thread in my collection.

[Montgomery Burns]

The issue of "copy" vs. "fake" is a matter of semantics. Sascha and Uwe support a precise wording:

• Original (awarded or made during the award time)
• Copy (Made after the award time as a duplicate or replacement)
• Fake (Counterfeit intended to deceive)

In my view it is a very useful nomenclature, but as it is not (yet) universally adopted, it is potentially problematic.

In any case, I would not own the piece that started this thread in my collection.

[/QUOTE]

WY ,,you own a wideframe 1870 from AWS if I aim correctly recalling
( the same thing )

wy not just calling them

war time ek's ( fore the issued at war time )
pre war ek's ( the 1957 and the AWS 1870 and so on )
fake ek's ( floch and latvian and others )
copy ek's (fore the copy attempts on the 1870 B core and others ).











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[jt327gir]

...In any case, I would not own the piece that started this thread in my collection.

I would! It seems to be of decent quality, and it's made by S&L. Call it whatever you want - copy, 57er, whatever - it's still a piece of the EK history, authorized for wear by the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, that, in my opinion, would need to be included in any complete type collection of the EK series.

[saschaw]

Trevor, glad to see we seem to agree in most parts. I think this differentiation has to be done. We just cannot call a 70s made 1914 EK1 "original".



To sum it up, at least for me, the main difference between fakes and copies is maker's intention: fakes are made to deceive, while copies are not.

I can hardly imagine St & L offered their 1970s 1914 crosses as pre 1924 made ones... did they?

They are copies, but why bother? If you want to collect them, do so, and if you don't want, don't do it. It's up to our personal preferences.

In any case, I would not own the piece that started this thread in my collection

I would, given it is (I'm not sure) a post-WW2 replacement, like to have it in my collection - if it is part of a group that spreads over four parts of german history: A WW1 veteran who served through Weimar and "Third Reich" era, still to be alive and proudly wear his awards in BRD times... (I have such a group, and find it fascinating!)

authorized for wear by the Bundesrepublik Deutschland [...]

A one-piece tin cast cross by a Polish maker could be worn by a real recipient as well... authorized for wear!

[AlikN]

.....

• Original (awarded or made during the award time)
• Copy (Made after the award time as a duplicate or replacement)
• Fake (Counterfeit intended to deceive)

....

So called copies can be also made during the award time - war period, all TR L /.... marked pieces are copies made for whatever extra needs of original recipients, but for some reason we don't see such big difference there and if someone lets say will post nice Spanish Cross marked L/11 made sometime in '40s - replies would be "nice original" - not a nice copy, ...I think a lot of people use the word original referring that it was made there and before May '45.