1870 EK1 makers..

[Bill M]

--Ok, got a few things here. This one is what we're seeing these days and the type that I think is causing the anxiety. There those marked J, some unmarked ones and some 'G-pin' Godet rips. They have differences between them, but none of them are really fooling anyone. Again, the difference between these and the ones that George, Claudio and myself own are like night and day and the fakes aren't really even close to twilight. These fakers can't even really replicate a 1914 cross well and my particular 1870 has better core details than any of my 6 1st class 1914's (which include a beautiful Friedlander). I've been following these for a while now and have grown very anxious regarding these eastern european copies, as we all should.
--As another aside, ever notice that you never see a patina on those 'I' marked crosses? heh hehh heh

[Bill M]

r

[Bill M]

The prinzen I mentioned, sorry the pictures aren't better...

[Bill M]

r

[Bill M]

--And another example of a cross I believe to be legit. Sorry there is no reverse picture, but it is a J Wagner...
--Oh and as an aside, it is possible that the stamping on Claudio's prinzen was not done evenly which could leave out the leftmost part of the J. I have seen this happen with stamped maker marks, and not only on an award but on part of a silver dining room set. Just a possible non-nefarious explanation, I suspect that there may be a faint outline of the missing part of the J there or the right side of the stamping being noticably deeper. Actually the stamping kinda looks 'doubled'... Claudio?

[Bill M]

...

[Klaus O.]

Bill,

It looks like you said.. the stamping was definately not done evenly... but I guess it's a "fainted" J. Furthermore, the iron core of the Prinzengrösse IC seems to be stepped...

Man! That's really torture... ... What does your gut-feeling say to you about my crosses?

Ciao,

Claudio

[Bill M]

Claudio,
--Besides the dining-room bowl-thing I referred to, I have seen this type of 'fainted' stamp in both an original CEJ Spanish Cross AND an 'I' Wagner 1870 (and it was a definite I Wagner from the obverse and the stockier lettering on the stamp) but that is little better than heresay as I cannot produce the picture. I think that if you searched the archives here you can find the Spanish Cross.
--I am hazy on 1st class prinzens in general but a stepped core is a good sign. Fakers can't even get a 1914 core done right let alone proper stepping, but that is only my opinion. The crown on yours throws me a little, but then again if someone offered me Bismarck's on page 116 of the Iron Time - the dates on that one would put me off much more. Taking that into consideration and the fact that I do not and never have owned a prinzen 1st class, my gut says 'fine'. For what it's worth...
--As yet another aside, I just took another look at the pinned 'Latvian' thread. Regarding the core only, if they ever get that crown right - the entire 1870 1st Cl market is in deep sh!t.

[Biro]

Bill

You may have seen it, but this thread Any thoughts on this... is worth a look if just for the maker mark at bottom of page...

Poor photo makes it anything but conclusive, but it does appear they tried hard to get 'I' with the maker mark, and (I'm reliably informed by Tim and Brian) forgot the rest.

Also, spookily close core to the one you just posted above, even the wobbly '0'.....

For sale as we speak....

Does anyone here actually HAVE a good close-up photo of an 'I' marked Wagner reverse they can post - there's no shortage of J's posted over the years, but a distinct lack of I's.......



Regards

[Brian S]

I still believe we need some hard core research. Quality of a piece does not connote originality. Patina is a good start, quality is a good start but we still don't know the when. I have no doubt there are families in Germany that still have their great-grandparent's pieces just as I do. We need to find them and record the truth. Until then no matter how great they look we are still speculating. For me to believe this research, I'd like to see family name and other pieces together with records of that vet having won the EK, very easy, rather than a "...from family."

[Bill M]

--I agree. What do we do, though? Take out an ad in a German newspaper?
--I am quite serious. Where does one, especially one laid up in New York, begin to do the footwork involved?

[Tim Tezer]

It took me a while, but I did have a thought. For those of you who have the "J" type pieces - Bill, George & Claudio - try taking it to a jeweler and have them test for silver content. I think silver content is testing by putting a drop of acid on a small area of the item and seeing what color it turns. Bright red is pure silver, dark blood red is sterling, brown is 800 silver. A skilled jeweler should be able to tell you at least within a range of where the silver content falls on these items, if you're willing to try it. If the silver content is correct (should be .875) then we haven't proven anything, but if it tests at 800 or 925 for example, it would be fairly conclusive evidence that these crosses are fake.

Anyone willing to try the acid test?

Tim

[Bill M]

--Good idea, I will look into it. If it is possible and it will not damage the cross, I will do it.
--George? Claudio?

[George Stimson]

I'd be willing to look into it as well.

[Tiger 1]

A silver test or for that matter testing gold purity can be safely done without applying acid to the medal itself. Jewelers will normally touch the item to be tested with a stone in a discreet place. The fine line smear left on the stone will show the same results when the acid test is performed. No damage to the original item.

Tony