1870 EK1 makers..

[Bill M]

"I hope there aren't a lot of perfectly good period private copies out there that end up in the dustbin because they are shunned as fakes. But that could happen."
--Money/investment aside, this is a driving reason to attempt to get some clarification. I just asked George via PM if he could imagine throwing his away!
--Another small idea while we're here. The consensus is that issue pieces had flat dates, right? The I. Wagners, the Godet's both had flat dates, the only Lauer that I see in reference has flat dates. If we can acquire clear portraits of soldiers wearing their crosses, we may be able to catch a glimpse, no, maybe?... Just a thought.

[George Stimson]

"I just asked George via PM if he could imagine throwing his away! "

I said "no." (But then, I never throw anything away!)

[Brian S]

George, I've been seeing a steady stream of 1870 EK1's on Germany eBay. However, the photos have been mostly out of focus, duhhhh....

For that particular variety of blurred images I'd have to guess the Latvian EKickky.

[George Stimson]

Brian,

Do these e-Bay EKs look like the ones Bill and I have? Same pins, hinges, marks, etc.?

[Bill M]

--Definitely not, George! That's one of my basic points here. There is a vast difference regarding the dates and especially the crown. Low relief and sloppy with some having "W's" that barely fit. They also usually have the WW1 style pin/catch assembly.

--Something I thought I might add for now...I believe we have seen here in the past at least one well executed first class prinzen 'J' Wagner that IMO adds credence to the discussion. This also may add validity to Tim's reasoning regarding J's as private purchase pieces, as of course all prinzens were. I am looking for the photo in my archives as I cannot find it here. Stay tuned...

[Klaus O.]

that's frustrating...

Dear Imperialoids,

I just finished to read your most interesting comments... I tell you the truth: right now I feel so frustrated and disappointed like when I used to collect III. Reich's orders and medals and I discoverd, after beginning to browse on the internet and finding this very forum, some of my high end medals and badges to be fake or at least to be questionable. It seems that also Imperial collectibles, or at least in some area of collecting, are being faked or messed around with as much as Nazi regalia.

I am going to show you mine EK 1. Klasse 1870, which I believed to be real and maybe now its originality has been questioned. I particularly liked the patina and the quite good detail of the different parts of the cross. The funny thing is that I got here on the Estand with its little brother (or sister) Prinzengrösse (half-sized) EK 1. Kl. 1870.

The measurements of my cross are: Breite 43.55 mm, Höhe 43.29 mm, 13.3 g

I guess mine will look like many other crosses you might have in your collection.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Brian S]

I couldn't see them well enough to tell you that George. The only ones I've seen clearly are the Latvian fakes, totally different.

Are there any ownership changes at Wagner to suggest an I or a J might make sense as a father passed to son or brother to brother???

Most likely the J is a Gothic I, which actually makes a lot of sense.

[Klaus O.]

Reverse...

[Klaus O.]

another shot of the reverse..

[Brian S]

Patina on this one does NOT look faked to me.

[Klaus O.]

EK 1. Klasse 1870, Prinzengrösse

...and here my EK Prinzengrösse... obverse:

[Klaus O.]

and reverse...

measurements: width and height 33 mm, weight 9.7 g

[Klaus O.]

Prinzengrösse reverse

... and the reverse

Measurements, width and height 33mm, weight 9.7 g

[Brian S]

Again, I have NO problem with the patina on that one either. Question remains, WHEN was it made? 1870 or 1910?

I can't tell if the two maker marks of Claudio's are exactly the same or not???

[Tim Tezer]

Claudio,

Your full-size EK1 looks very much like George's. I will have to look through my collection of digital images that I've saved and see if I can make out any differences between items offered by known sellers of fakes and the ones you and George and Bill have posted.

As for the prinzen sized one, I'm sorry to say I don't like it at all. The reson is mainly that the makers mark says "I", but it is a modified "J" that been shortened. notice that the I doesn't have any serifs, but the other letters do. I think this is because whoever was making these fakes found out that it was supposed to say "I" instead of "J", so he just took his stamp and ground off part of the J to make it into an I.

But, that's just a theory. I can't prove a damn thing for certain.

It is painful to realize that you've been burned, but it is something that we have to deal with. As long as there is money in it, the fakers will continue to s**t in our drinking water. If we could find out who is making them, maybe we could stop them, but I think someone else would just step in and take their place.

Tim