Here's my modest contribution
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Hello Tim.Originally posted by Tim B. View Post
Carsten Baldes is one of the best dealers when it comes to Imperial badges so do you think a cast reproduction would get past him given that he has the measurements and weights that an original should be ?
the hardwear on this badge appears to be made on nickel but it is hard to say for sure with out having the badge in hand. What should the hardwear on an original Meybauer Imperial U Boat be made of because it is my understanding that nickel is correct for the pre-1918 examples ?
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-18-2010, 06:26 PM.Comment
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Have a look at "emedals" item number "GEM606" in the German Empire section.Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
The strike of this example at emedals looks very nice but it definitely has the same nickel hinge showing through the gilt and the same nickel pin with no gilt on it. Look also at the imperfections in the form of small holes on the reverse of the emedals example which are just the same as those on the one Carsten has sold.
To my eye Carsten Baldes example appears correct but has had more use or wear and there is now no gilt remaining plus the markers mark has not been struck as clearly as that on the emedal example.
Like Tim I too would be interested in what others think because one does not see the Meybauer examples all that often,
ChrisComment
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Hi Chris,
I know Baldes reputation as I've dealt with him since 2000, that isn't the point, as he has got things wrong from time to time like everyone else. I personally used to consider him one of my favorite dealers. This is about the badge only.
You're correct, we don't see a lot of Meybauer examples posted and though I have asked for examples to be posted here, until now no one has posted any.
So, as far as acceptable hardware, I have no idea. The condition may be attributed to wear or bad storage conditions over time and I already mentioned that when PIC's are enlarged, we see more details than we would normally. However, I find the quality lacking on this example compared to others I've seen in the past.
Wish more would post their pieces for comparison and comment one way or the other.
TimComment
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OK Tim I can see what you are saying, have no argument with that and appreciate the replyOriginally posted by Tim B. View Post
so let me put this another way, I have bought this badge and on the basis of what you are saying here I will contact Carsten and tell him that the badge will going back to Germany asap because you have pictured it here on the forum and it has lacking detail so is most likely a cast copy with what you suspect is added or replaced hardware.
I think that sort of sums it up because basically this is a kiss of death for it and now it would be next to impossible for me to be able to say that it was period if I decide to sell it again at a later date even though I am buying it from a very experienced dealer in the handling of these badges over many years.
Have I got this correct,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-19-2010, 03:44 AM.Comment
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Chris, did I say the badge was bad? I asked a comment concerning the strike quality and wanted to know what others thought about it. Don't read more into it.
If you're concerned about losing money on an investment, that's your worry, but posting comments asking questions to other collectors here is certainly no "kiss of death" in my book, especially when nobody is actually discussing the piece on it's own merits.
As I stated above, this is about the badge, not the dealer. We need to leave sources out of these issues and discuss the items for what they are, nothing more. All dealers have made mistakes from time to time as history has shown and dealers with bad reps also sell some really nice items; it's about the item.
Oh and btw, Carsten is a member here as well, or at least he used to be.
I don't come here for arguments, so go back and take another look at my initial comments. Once you have the badge in hand, take some good PICs of it and post it here so everyone can look at it; that's in your best interests anyway.
Good luck!
TimComment
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Hello Tim and again thank you for replying,Originally posted by Tim B. View Post
Chris, did I say the badge was bad? I asked a comment concerning the strike quality and wanted to know what others thought about it. Don't read more into it.
If you're concerned about losing money on an investment, that's your worry, but posting comments asking questions to other collectors here is certainly no "kiss of death" in my book, especially when nobody is actually discussing the piece on it's own merits.
As I stated above, this is about the badge, not the dealer. We need to leave sources out of these issues and discuss the items for what they are, nothing more. All dealers have made mistakes from time to time as history has shown and dealers with bad reps also sell some really nice items; it's about the item.
Oh and btw, Carsten is a member here as well, or at least he used to be.
I don't come here for arguments, so go back and take another look at my initial comments. Once you have the badge in hand, take some good PICs of it and post it here so everyone can look at it; that's in your best interests anyway.
Good luck!
Tim
These are the two statements you made in post number 43 which would cause alarm in the mind of any collector and I quote you word for word;
"Cast of an original ?"
"The hardware certainly looks added or replaced"
And no I have no interest in making money on this badge as an investment. If that was my motivation then there are far better ways than collecting this stuff.
but I do hope that if I sell or trade it in the future that this is an original badge to offer and I would not be accused of trying to stick someone with a cast copy bearing replaced hardware after they read this thread and see the badge pictured here.
My concern is that what I am being told by the seller is in fact what I am being sold and that is an "original Imperial German U Boat badge made by Meybauer" not a copy of one or one with added hardware .
There is nothing wrong with me following up on your comments on this forum because you are a respected member who is held in high esteem and what you say here has a huge impact on what some collectors believe or repeat.
also I am within the time period to return the badge or raise any concerns with the seller so now is the time on my part to act and to establish if it is good or bad.
By saying this Tim, I am not trying to have an argument with you but I am hoping that other members may now come forward and share what they know about U-Boat badges by this maker because there does not seem to be much on WAF about this type to help any collector come to an objective conclusion,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-19-2010, 02:36 PM.Comment
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Hi Chris,
Okay, perhaps we both need to take a step back and relax a bit.
My initial (?) was just that, a question on what others thought. The badge looks rough in the PIC's on the dealer site. Now, does it look that way because we are enlarging these things 10 times their normal size, is the badge excessively worn, or is there a cause for genuine concern?
I know Carsten and have for sometime, I know he is not the type of guy to sell you a fake outright; just not his style. But, there have been mistakes and nobody gets it right 100% of the time. So, as a buyer, it's in your best interest to know what you're looking at and be knowledgeable in your purchases.
Meybauer badges are out there and honestly, I'm surprised we haven't seen at least two or three posted by now, but I don't own one personally or I would have posted an example. Again, the issue of hardware on this one is unknown to me and one of the reasons I try to start actual discussions in these forums to learn and share knowledge on items. I do it in several areas and some are better than others. Unfortunately, most are content asking if something is real and what's it worth type questions. You don't learn much with those type threads IMO.
So, get the badge in hand and take a close look at it. Does it look cast, worn, ??? Post some good PIC's, if for no other reason, to confirm you got a good badge. And, if it is a good badge, then leave the PIC's so we got a good reference piece to gage future items against.
Don't worry about returning it, Carsten is a stand-up guy and if there are issues, he will take anything back.
Best I can do Chris. I want to say though, that the strength of any forum is the ability to ask about items when questions arise. I know how you feel when someone asks questions on an item you got your money down on and it can get frustrating, but if there are questions, they need to be asked IMO.
Take care and anxious to see the PIC's!
TimComment
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Hello again Tim and again thank you for taking the time to reply.
I do not have the badge in hand yet and it will not be here until next week so when I get it I will post some good images of what we need to see.
My feelings is that it is a good one but has seen a bit of use for sure and depths of the ocean. May be even a good dunking in salt water. Who knows but the gilt is gone and the bronze is showing. I really like badges which have that real been there look because these are the ones that saw the real war so you can see why this fits my bill. Just imagine what being in a WW1 German U-Boat does to any badge.
Have contacted Carsten and as you say there is no problem what so ever to send it back if I am not happy but he did say that it matches the one in his own personal collection in every way esp. the pin, hinge and hook which is why he could see immediately when he got it that it is 101% correct and original except that his one has a lot more gilt being almost mint. He is going to send me the exact measurement and weight of his one.
Carsten also commented that Meybauer badges may in fact be some sort of cast type in some cases and he has noticed this more than once on perfectly good Imperial pilot and aircrew badges by them. I have to say that I too agree with Carsten on this point and this has also been my observation.
When one makes something out of solid nickel or solid bronze then the lost wax type method is not uncommon and often used. The important point here between a copy and an original is size and weight. Factory made badges will always be a certain size/ weight where as a copy will be usually about 10% smaller all round. All that happens is that the fakers just make a lost wax copy of something which was originally made using lost wax or multiple casting.
Anyway as I say now is the time to ask the questions and do the checks plus you finally have a Meybauer on this thread so lets hope that it turns out to be a real one but it will be great to get yours and other opinions about it when it gets here.
Did you look at the example on "emedals" item GEM606 which also shows signs of casting ?
Best regards, ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-20-2010, 04:49 AM.Comment
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Here is my contribution. Got this one from a vet walk-in at a Michigan show over 30 years ago.
TomComment
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Close-up of maker Meybauer maker mark:Comment
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Nice thing about his one is that it came with this bullion cap insignia:Comment
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Wow tgn,
that would have to be the nicest Meybauer that I have ever seen.
In fact I doubt one could find an example by this maker that is better in terms of the amount of finish remaining.
I do note, however, that it does appear to have a nickel hinge, pin and hook. The hinge of course has a lot of gilt remaining on it but the silver nickel is showing through on the edges and the pin is a unique shape to this maker. This is the type of hardware an original Meybauer has.
Could I please ask you what the size and weight of your one is ?
Many thanks for posting,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-20-2010, 03:41 PM.Comment
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Hi Chris/Tom!
Beautiful badge Tom and this is really what I expect to see. It would be curious to see measurements and once Chris gets his badge in compare the two. Probably just a case of wear but I'm curious as we don't see this maker's u-boat badges too often.
Thanks for posting a great example!!
TimComment
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Sure, the weight is 23.8 grams. I don't have the best measuring device, but is measures 48 mm long x 47 mm high.Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
Hope this helps.
TomComment
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