S&L Showroom circa 1940/1?

[DavidM]

Hello

Having carefully studied the photos posted here, I feel that they are what they are - genuine photos of a display of S&L products and offerings, taken during WW2.

Although companies, including S&L, made swastika'd items after the war for sale as souvenirs to the services stationed in Germany, as well as replacements for veterans whose original awards had been 'souvenired', (and of course, for collectors as well), I really can't believe that they would have such an overt show of banned items displayed like this. As for photoshopping the pictures, or ulterior motives, I can't see that either. If you were going to do that, why leave out the contraversial S&L DKs for example?

So, only my opinion, but I feel these are genuine WW2 period photos of a display by S&L. Whether in their premises or at some sort of exhibition I don't know.

Regards
David

[Leroy]

Does anyone have a catalog from S&L which pre-dates their "50th Anniversary" catalog which came out in 1939?

In going back and looking very closely at the photos so kindly posted by
"jaeger7-de" (), I really can see nothing that looks out of line for possible actual manufacture by S&L. True, the PLM does not match the post-World War 2 style from them, and instead looks more like a Wagner, but who can say at this point that S&L may not have had some capability in this area, or was able to borrow dies, if only for display pieces? All of the other pieces in the cases, and on the counters, certainly conform to what S&L showed in its catalogs from 1939 and 1941 (and possibly in a "1940" catalog as well). There is no plethora of WW1 aviation badges (those badges in the last display case on the left are shooting and other type badges), nor are there (as has already been pointed out) any Luftwaffe badges, which is completely in line with what we know about S&L (although later in the war it did manufacture some flight clasps).

The presence of a CLTB should not be so surprising. Although there are many fakes of this badge, and although most collectors recognize as authentic only a couple of styles, there are certainly examples out there that are very well made
(and unmarked)(just as the Schickle's are unmarked) which no one has been able to nail down as to manufacturer. Why not S&L? Do we assume that because S&L is not known to have had this badge in its "postwar line-up" that
it never made them? There are many things it made during, and before, the war, that did not appear later.

Same for the Knights Cross of the War Merit Cross. Some still argue that S&L did not make them, although some have appeared with the "4" mark and examples, in zinc, appeared on the so-called "salesman boards" which have been examined here before, bartered and sold to early postwar occupation troops.

Same for the Grand Cross of the 1939 Iron Cross. There are non-Juncker examples of this cross, produced during the war for sale (before October, 1941), as well as display and exhibit, which are unmarked. Why would S&L ("Home of the Iron Cross") not have produced some of these? Again, because we haven't seen postwar examples from S&L, is this a disqualifier? I suggest not.

It's my personal conclusion that the pieces which appear in these photos were all made by S&L.

As an "outake", I posted earlier here a very poor attempt at a blow-up of the Spanish Crosses which appear in this display. We know, from their catalog, that S&L produced these. The one I "blew up", however, certainly appears to be a wearing copy of the Cross with Brilliants, which is NOT in their catalog. I mention this only to highlight that S&L probably made many things, on a "special order" basis, or just to have (as a prominent manufacturer) a "presence" for special items, which we never think to connect to them.

[Don D.]

The presence of a CLTB should not be so surprising. Why not S&L? Do we assume that because S&L is not known to have had this badge in its "postwar line-up" that
it never made them? There are many things it made during, and before, the war, that did not appear later.

It's my personal conclusion that the pieces which appear in these photos were all made by S&L.

As an "outake", I posted earlier here a very poor attempt at a blow-up of the Spanish Crosses which appear in this display. We know, from their catalog, that S&L produced these. The one I "blew up", however, certainly appears to be a wearing copy of the Cross with Brilliants, which is NOT in their catalog. I mention this only to highlight that S&L probably made many things, on a "special order" basis, or just to have (as a prominent manufacturer) a "presence" for special items, which we never think to connect to them.

Interesting opinions. I don't know what to conclude though. Why didn't they make the CLTB post war?

[Darrell]

Well Darrell, for sure this guy is someone who has put you on his ignore-list...

jaeger7-de

No problem. Mate. I know who you are anyway. No loss here

[Brian S]

Thank you Marcus! I'm sure some of those cases are either for display only or for special purchase.

I agree Don, because people are seeing it on the wall many are jumping to the conclusion, IMHO erroneously, that S&L produced them.

I think everyone's contribution has also proven this photo to be early 1941.

[Leroy]

Don,
Although S&L certainly, postwar, sold items from its existing leftover stock and also assembled and sold RK's and some other pieces, from pre-existing parts and then, later, newly stamped components, it never appears to have produced any "full product line" of its TR, and earlier, products. Whose knows why? Maybe Souval (with whom it seems to have had some sort of relationship) handled the bulk of those items, maybe S&L limited itself to a few of the types (such as RK's) for which there was the greatest demand. Again, who knows? It would be very interesting to see (which I don't think has ever been done before) the real range of its known and provable postwar (non-1957 version) newly produced TR-era products. Based on the few (other than RK's and some DK's) which I have personally seen, I believe we may be surprised at how few there really are. S&L has been the "boogeyman" to many collectors for many years (based on its known sale of existing stock and new production of RK's and DK's, but, more importantly, based on its assumed, but totally unproven, new production of other items). My personal feeling is that it has gotten a "bum rap". It certainly is not "clean", but its activities regarding "new production" have been, in my opinion, very much exaggerated.
Regards,
Leroy

[Brian S]

Leroy, Dietrich has shown the evidence... Unless they were massively overstocked with leftover items, they produced anew.

...unless they were overstocked with leftover items, hmmmmmm.


Anyone ever interviewed or proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they stamped the dreaded swastika postwar?

[Leroy]

Brian,
Don't misunderstand me. S&L most assuredly, at some point postwar, began NEW manufacture of TR RK's and DK's, and also some other pieces (including for sure a couple models of flight clasps and perhaps a few other badges).

There is NO question that the companies in Ludenscheid, including S&L specifically, had huge quantities of leftover stock, both completed and uncompleted, on hand at war's end. Just in the last few days, over at GCA, someone showed a very large quantity of FLL badges, still in their original wrappings, which a fellow had bought from the company in the 50's and just held onto. There are similar stories from other areas, including the "Deschler hoard" found in the last few years, which everyone and his brother has heard about. In the dagger field, Jim Atwood found in the 50's and 60's immense quantities of daggers and dagger parts, and happily assembled them for years. The point is that there was a lot of stuff simply left over and, despite what we think now, no huge interest in it. Sure, occupation soldiers (especially early ones) had offered to them, and bought, leftover pieces. Some of the multi-part pieces they bought were, in fact, crudely put together (solder, lousy rivets, etc.), using original parts, by people just looking to have something to barter.

The evidence from Dietrich consists of a printed article concerning a dealer in a town near Ludenscheid and several catalogs (from people like Sedlatzek and Schiffer), most dating from 1957 and later. In the printed article, from 1953, the dealer is described as selling badges and decorations to "entitled veterans" (but you can assume, for argument's sake here, that he sold to anyone) and his principal source is said to be S&L. It is entirely possible that his principal source was S&L, but has anyone ever
shown an example of what he was selling? NO. Why is it not possible that, in those early days, he was still able to sell many originals? (In the article, the dealer specifically notes and cautions that the ribbons he sells are postwar manufactured, but says nothing whatsoever to indicate that the badges were.) It is noted that, if he does not have something in stock, he would send the disappointed veteran to S&L, where the item could be "special ordered" and would have a delivery time of FOUR WEEKS. Doesn't sound much like S&L was cranking the stuff out every day, does it? The catalogs which are referenced (again, most dating from 1957 and later) contain just about anything you could ever want, but NONE of them mention S&L. In fact, I have personally spoken to people who dealt with the people who issued these catalogs and they have told me that the pieces were ALL by Souval. Nothing from S&L.

Is S&L the "postwar RK king"? If you're talking about material from original dies, probably so (although the K&Q dies appear to have been possibly very active, too). In the immediate postwar period, it still had originals. A bit later, it started to assemble using original parts, then, still later, a mixture of real and newly-stamped parts and then, finally, assembled "from the ground up" with all new stampings. Look at the very first 57-version RK's which use unflawed and nicely finished "B" type frames. Only after the inception of the 57-version RK, and the re-commenced die stamping that entailed, do you see "B" type frames with raised beading flaws.

Anyway, we need to, in a very serious way, re-examine some of our beliefs.
Regards,
Leroy

[Brian S]

One thing is absolutely certain, S&L did not manufacture PlMs previous to 1945. No evidence exists otherwise, and this only confirms they were displaying a Wagner PlM.

Nor does it appear they were given blanks and permitted to create their own from blanks. As they surely would have marked them, the Wagners, to indicate so.

[Leroy]

One thing is absolutely certain, S&L did not manufacture PlMs previous to 1945. No evidence exists otherwise, and this only confirms they were displaying a Wagner PlM.

And I would concede that to you (with the possibility, however remote, that it had some deal with Wagner, or someone else, to use their dies to make a few display pieces).

[Robin Lumsden]

Yes, i have one! The page was mixed up ... Sorry...

[Robin Lumsden]

I think that's going a bit too far. The one thing that is absolutely certain is that we do not now have any conclusive evidence to establish that S&L made the PLM before 1945. Some may yet come to light, who knows?

I agree with that.

The truth is that very little is 'certain' in this game.

Why would S&L hang a Wagner PLM among a lot of items that apparently were made by them?

I have no dog in this fight, and certainly don't have a PLM in my collection, but I don't think we can rule anything out here.

These photos provide thought-provoking new evidence, IMHO.

[Brian S]

I agree with that.

The truth is that very little is 'certain' in this game.

Why would S&L hang a Wagner PLM among a lot of items that apparently were made by them?

I have no dog in this fight, and certainly don't have a PLM in my collection, but I don't think we can rule anything out here.

These photos provide thought-provoking new evidence, IMHO.

Well Robin get into the "way back machine" and find out. Until then, that's a Wagner, not a S&L. They didn't make one 1941.

[Robin Lumsden]

They didn't make one 1941.

How can we say that?

We just don't know, that's the truth.

Sorry Brian................that's the way it is with this one.

PS - I still believe that the photo dates from 1940. It could have been published in 1941. Things can take months to go to press.

[Robin Lumsden]

Brian.

To avoid confusion, I'm not suggesting that the 'modern' S&L PLMs are pre-'45.

What I'm saying is that we can't discount the possibility that S&L made PLMs pre-'45.

These photos show a number of awards (EKs etc.) that we know were made by S&L, and some (CLTB, SS, etc.) that we don't know were made by them.

As already pointed out, the really interesting thing is that they omit the (Luftwaffe etc.) awards that we know (or believe) were NOT made by them pre-'45.

To my mind, that strengthens the argument that everything in these photos was made by S&L c. 1940.