1813 EKs - ...question.

[Brian S]

Great comments Mr. Burns.

[AlikN]

...........looks to me that most of the fakers now days got lazy and do casting or stamping of one piece construction crap which can be seen in quantities on ebay and other sites and maybe only a few trying to make it looks more believable, making their own frames and cores or by using ww1 frames, but still unidentifiable as fakes by the forum .

....it's from post 64 typo, can't edit anymore, ...correct: ' ... identifiable as fakes by the forum '.

[streptile]

Was the EK an Order or a decoration? Orders were usually mandated for return because of the precious metals in them, usually gold. Decorations on the other hand were not.

Yes, you're right Don (from what I've read).

The Iron Cross is an order, by the way.

[Brian S]

...an order. Then I hope everyone understands how the plot thickens. Prussia in the 1800's did not consist of 'collectors' showing off their EKs and RAOs. And now, given they were orders, far fewer EKs... And how many 1813 vets alive by 1914? Near zero I'd suspect. So the quantity of EKs under somewhat restricted volumes lying around in cigar boxes. My opinion based on some second hand knowledge of the 'duty' to return orders upon death even as late as 1949.

[streptile]

By the way (in case it went unnoticed), the cross currently for sale on eBay is also featured as #10 in the chart in the first post.

[AlikN]

How about the core in #2, looks like the same design, ... they had much more frame makers-jewelers then iron-work shops .

[saschaw]

The EKs of 1813, 1870 and 1914 were, from my understanding, decorations. Only the 1939 issue was an order from it's statutes.

However, this is an issue very often discussed through all times. Even Prussian King Friedrich Wilhelm III. was asked, back then, and refused a clear answer. In the end we might agree the Iron Cross is a decoration of very special meaning and importance.

Would it be possible that different frame makers(jewelers) got supplied with cores from the same iron work shop?

Has anyone here read the (more important parts of this) thread?! The cores even of the very first crosses were cast in Berlin Eisengießerei and same in Gleiwitz, and then were spread to several Berlin jewelers. Nothing new, it's even written in this very thread...

Someone here ought to have that Prussian regulation at hand?

I have, but I don't have handy. There has something been published in 1906 by the same guy who made the Ordens-Almanach. Most, actually almost all, Prussian orders and decorations had to be returned. Maybe someone does have it more handy than I... ?

[streptile]

Has anyone here read the (more important parts of this) thread?! The cores even of the very first crosses were cast in Berlin Eisengießerei and same in Gleiwitz, and then were spread to several Berlin jewelers.

...and Breslau jewelers, right?

I did not know there was a controversy about the status of the Iron Cross. I knew it was an order in 1939, and assumed it had always been. Thanks for the clarification.

[saschaw]

That might be the controversy regarding German orders and decorations. I'm lucky we're not discussing it at the moment.

[Brian S]

Most, actually almost all, Prussian orders and decorations had to be returned.

This is very critical information and the point I was making earlier.

I know my family's items from pre WW1 members with the exception of the 1870 EKII w 25 Year Oaks was returned. My great grandfather wore that one seperately and I've assumed he purchased it himself. Medalbar and beautiful breast stars all returned.

[saschaw]

Here's the list of Prussian awards and decorations that had NOT to be returned. Or: anything not listed here had to be returned, at least officially.

There were additional things like one could pay for keeping the awards, not mentioned here in detail unfortunally.

It's taken from: Prof. Dr. Georg Epstein (that's the guy who made the Deutsche Ordens-Almanach!), "Die Vorschriften der Deutschen Bundesstaaten über die Trageweise und Rückgabe der Orden und Ehrenzeichen" - roughly meaning German states' regulations regarding how to wear your awards, and which may be kept you've passed away. Photocopied as mine available on eBay.de for less that a Hindenburg cross...

http://s4.directupload.net/file/d/2033/ksduht2d_jpg.htm
http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2033/pfby5l7o_jpg.htm

PS: It is from about 1906 and therefore lists no later awards. It's as well possible, some regulations changed later. This is what it was in ~1906 like.

[VtwinVince]

Technically, the Iron Cross was known as the 'Kriegsorden des Eisernen Kreuzes', or War Order of the Iron Cross, I don't know if that elevates it to order status. And Brian is right, most Prussian orders were returned upon death of recipient. My great-grandfather's spange was missing the RAO and KO when I inherited it. And let's not even get into the Bohemian Corporal's stealing of a purely Prussian decoration in 1939 for propaganda purposes

[streptile]

Weitze has a ridiculously beautiful and in my personal opinion 100% original example for sale HERE:

[saschaw]

Technically, the Iron Cross was known as the 'Kriegsorden des Eisernen Kreuzes'

When? Are you referring to the 1939 issue? That was an order, yes.

I have honestly never before heard that term so am pretty sure it was at least not used officially. Or, not in Imperial times.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I think that it would be interesting to read how the Iron Cross was described in Gottschalck's "Almanach der Ritter=Orden", Leipzig, Goeschen, 1819, page 146:

"ORDEN DES EISERNEN KREUZES.
Unter alle Orden, die je gestiftet worden sind, ist wohl keiner so sinnvoll, keiner für einen so hohen, herrlichen Zweck, keiner in sich so einfach, so prunklos, und doch so bedeutungsreich und mit so vieler Eigenthümlichkeit ausgedacht worden, als der Orden des eisernen Kreuzes.".

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang