1813 EKs - ...question.

[Montgomery Burns]

I"l try

right cross :( things that could concern someone )

the right frame is without an hump and looks to me like a different frame as the left

the top off the crown fades a little ( what is not happening on the left cross)

just under the FW there is an aria that looks like an crack that has being glued .

the FW has a little damage




left cross

the leaves look not so detailed ,a little soft ,,

also the 1813 is very soft .

but the crown is strong and crisp ,,,(so no casted copy )

but a small ring fore the ribbon ,,,that may be a replacement .
as it was common to have larg rings on the 1813


the right one comes with an expertise from DN .
so WY worry ?

[Brian S]

The problem of Floch made item that they NOT in all aspects looks like an original (maybe to a new collector), but if you put side by side to an original the best looking Floch, any half advanced collector will point out the difference for you, the same goes for any GC or EK if side by side it looks identical in ALL aspects, not just because it's an iron cross and looks like a good quality. Just like the one you point out on e-bay, side by side it looks identical to one made in 1830s, ....do you see any connection to Floch? ....and that what I mean in post # 41 side by side identical in ALL aspects .

Again and again you are trying to start a fight here... I did NOT say they were made by Floch I used him as an example. And as for Floch, all Floch pieces have by no means been identified as fakes on this forum and are no doubt being taken as real examples. Read the posts please and refrain from twisting mine.

[Brian S]

I understand that fakers are getting better, but I have not seen a perfect fake yet that is in every way as original, ....dies don't lie and no way how close it will look, it will never have an original dies with the same identifiable micro die flaws and some other characteristics of the core and frames combined together, fakers always getting something wrong and usually product shows in quantity, meaning in year or two every dealer at shows will have one of that type.

Don, this is just this person's way of causing a fight. I won't participate in this person's vendettas. Please correct this.

Trying to discredit me because of your opinion on a LCTB is just purely and simply a flaming. It does you no credit.

[AlikN]

I though about that statement that the fakers are getting better and the best of them so far on it's level Floch is easily identifiable,
so where are the products of those everyday getting better fakers, are there any EK fakes made recently that are better fakes then Floch and it's getting harder and harder for us to detect them from originals because they so good, any cast iron fake cores noted on new fakes? ....
.....looks to me that most of the fakers now days got lazy and do casting or stamping of one piece construction crap which can be seen in quantities on ebay and other sites and maybe only a few trying to make it looks more believable, making their own frames and cores or by using ww1 frames, but still unidentifiable as fakes by the forum .

[Don D.]

Please keep the discussion on subject and leave personalities out of it. This should be a technical discussion on 1813 series crosses.

[AlikN]

I"l try

right cross :( things that could concern someone )

the right frame is without an hump and looks to me like a different frame as the left

the top off the crown fades a little ( what is not happening on the left cross)

just under the FW there is an aria that looks like an crack that has being glued .

the FW has a little damage




left cross

the leaves look not so detailed ,a little soft ,,

also the 1813 is very soft .

but the crown is strong and crisp ,,,(so no casted copy )

but a small ring fore the ribbon ,,,that may be a replacement .
as it was common to have larg rings on the 1813


the right one comes with an expertise from DN .
so WY worry ?

Good observation Montgomery!

Would it be possible that different frame makers(jewelers) got supplied with cores from the same iron work shop?

...and this question again: ...lets say in 1840s-1850s production of EKs were picked up by other companies or the same companies made enough EKs that there were no more shortage for the awards, ....did they still taking the EKs back from families of passed away veterans?

[Don D.]

I believe the practice of turing them in halted once the demand was met. As to the core differences, the sand casting process is not an exact science, especially back then. Imperfections/loss of detail during mold preparation is a common occurance. I doubt anyone back then held these under a loupe.

[Brian S]

Montgomery, that just points out my original trepidations with these crosses, differences are summarily dismissed as casting differences which are respective to the date in which they were manufactured. I am no more comfortable now with these than I was originally, except with ONE of them...

[Brian S]

I believe the practice of turing them in halted once the demand was met. As to the core differences, the sand casting process is not an exact science, especially back then. Imperfections/loss of detail during mold preparation is a common occurance. I doubt anyone back then held these under a loupe.

...and of course you're right about the imperfections and loss of detail.

As for returning Orders, it was mandatory. What was included, EKs?, I don't know. But as I remember, medal bars were returned and ended up in local churches in some occasions so I just don't know the 'law' versus custom.

[Don D.]

Was the EK an Order or a decoration? Orders were usually mandated for return because of the precious metals in them, usually gold. Decorations on the other hand were not.

Soldiers that earned the EK had their names inscribed at their local churches.

Given the more variations of the 1813 series crosses and the lesser standards of materials and construction you would think they would be easier to fake using the same methods as the originals. Most fakers are lazy and unskilled in those methods so they resort to defacing the 1914 series crosses.

[Don D.]

ps- I took four years of metal shop in high school. Sandcasting was an everyday occurence and I have pounded my faisr share of molds.

[Brian S]

Was the EK an Order or a decoration? Orders were usually mandated for return because of the precious metals in them, usually gold. Decorations on the other hand were not.

Soldiers that earned the EK had their names inscribed at their local churches.

Given the more variations of the 1813 series crosses and the lesser standards of materials and construction you would think they would be easier to fake using the same methods as the originals. Most fakers are lazy and unskilled in those methods so they resort to defacing the 1914 series crosses.

The EK I believe a decoration.

Pre-war all orders were not solid gold. Some of the RAOs pre-war not solid gold.

I think the return of orders and medalbars something else other than metals value.

Gold was just a valuable metal except in times of war when it became crucial to international trade when times got tragically difficult.

Someone here ought to have that Prussian regulation at hand?

[AlikN]

.... Most fakers are lazy and unskilled in those methods so they resort to defacing the 1914 series crosses....

That is one reason, the other is the internet and the forum(s), with so much knowledge together it's makes harder for the faker to make a perfect fake, most of good quality fakes were made before the internet, when all was on gut feeling - not on shared knowledge, now at click of a button you can find a picture of original item you are looking for, which makes harder for fakers and also need a good investment to make a perfect copy, ....which will be spotted by an other forum,....dies don't lie.

[Montgomery Burns]

Good observation Montgomery!

Would it be possible that different frame makers(jewelers) got supplied with cores from the same iron work shop?

...and this question again: ...lets say in 1840s-1850s production of EKs were picked up by other companies or the same companies made enough EKs that there were no more shortage for the awards, ....did they still taking the EKs back from families of passed away veterans?

Would it be possible that different frame makers(jewelers) got supplied with cores from the same iron work shop?
wy not ?

it was common practise in 1914 ,,,1945 ,,,wy not in 1813 ?
I know off some other company that claims to made 1813 ek's
its called PREUSSAG ,,
aim getting the advertising document off that company next week .
I posted here if you want .

regards kay

[Montgomery Burns]

The EK I believe a decoration.

Pre-war all orders were not solid gold. Some of the RAOs pre-war not solid gold.

I think the return of orders and medalbars something else other than metals value.

Gold was just a valuable metal except in times of war when it became crucial to international trade when times got tragically difficult.

Someone here ought to have that Prussian regulation at hand?

Someone here ought to have that Prussian regulation at hand?

I bet 100 Euro some (or more collectors) in Germany has regulation like that in there collection.
its in the hand off the old school collectors over there , and they will not reveal it to us internet junk's fore chore .

O before I forget,
ennyone who was involved in some way in history about Germans ,and they're way's .

will tell you that the Germans where the masters off variate almost anything ,,,,and stop at nothing if it comes to variational experimenting .

it contribute to theyre military downfall even.