1813 EKs - ...question.

[streptile]

Elmer, thank you for the update on the Thies piece. Did you get it? It is so lovely to look at.

Brian, you raise some interesting points. However, I am inclined to trust an 1813 EK2 that
matches details and construction techniques found in Heyde's book, as he shows a good
selection of 3-piece construction EK2s made in the period.

It is certainly possible to question anything, but I believe the fakers have made their best
efforts, and fallen short in a few key areas. This is, in my opinion, their best so far:



...and it's pretty damn good. But doesn't pass as a real one. So I personally believe it is
still possible to judge an original 3-piece. What I do not know about are the
very early anomalies, like the Weitze piece shown above, and some of the notch-frame
examples in the first post. How can I possibly know if something "one-of-a-kind" was
made in 1815 or 2005?

And the earliest all exhibit individual characteristics and are not cross by cross
from the "same die, the die don't lie". Quite the opposite. They are hand made from the
impression in the sand mold.

Finally, a note about manufacture. As I understand it, the cores were cast in "casting trees,"
which had multiple molds that were filled at the same time. Thus there will be slight
variations from one mold to the next. I don't know how many molds sat side-by-side
(I'm not sure it is known by anyone), but this method probably explains the co-existence
of serif and sans-serif dates on original, early examples. An example of this kind of casting
tree can be seen in Vern Bowen's book (hardcover edition) on p. 28.

[Montgomery Burns]

someone done his home work

[Brian S]

...OK, "done his homework" as in "...an author in 1980 says...".

I remain a skeptic for reasons mentioned.

EKs were returned. Private purchase were not.

I don't want my stuff denounced any more than the next guy and I don't have one of these EKII's except in several portraits of my ancestor.

Love to have one, but I'm concerned about these and I haven't had the luxury of reading Heyde's book. Long out of print and at $200 at one of the few online sites to have one, a bit rich for a reference not seen.

Again, hope all the ones pictured in the group shot are real. Why not?

[streptile]

...OK, "done his homework" as in "...an author in 1980 says...". I remain a skeptic for reasons mentioned.

Yeah, fair enough. Whether the evidence that does exist is convincing enough is a matter of personal opinion, and I certainly respect yours, Brian. I have no horse in this race, either.

[Brian S]

Trevor, that makes your opinion very valuable. If you have good feelings about these I am much more comfortable given your lack of a horse. Thank you again Trevor. I really want to learn more about these so I can purchase one, frame it, and hang it along with a few of his other decorations next to his portrait.

My original purpose on this forum was to recreate this medalbar, I have so far not one single award... Here he is, a very famous relative. His bigraphy is all over the Internet. The father of the Telegraph in Germany, his statue at a train station in Austria...

That's an EKII 1813, and none of the above match it

[streptile]

Trevor, that makes your opinion very valuable. If you have good feelings about these I am much more comfortable given your lack of a horse.

Yeah, I should've said so earlier. If one comes up at the right price that seems legit, I'll take the plunge. But so far, no horse.

Happy New Year, everyone

[oldflagswanted]

Another 1813 IC Type ???

...are there any other types of 1813s than those on the picture?
Thanks
Alik

Hello Alikn:
Here is another 1813 IC type, IMO not one of "those on the picture". A Grand Cross
version of which some ~43 of these were presented to Prussian battalion fahnen.
..................... OLDFLAGSWANTED ........................

[Biro]

Some additional info for the thread...

The cross marked '8' in the original montage by Alikn is mine and to the best of my knowledge is part of what was known as the "2nd batch".

This production run was from appx 1834 to 1837 and consisted of some 7000 crosses made specifically for the nearly one half of all eligible recipients who had to wait untill after the war (in some cases, WELL after the war) to receive the decoration that was rightfully due.

This type (number 8) can be seen on the dress mounted bar of King Friedreich Wilhelm lll who died in 1840, so at best it may be 1813 to 1834 production, but more likey 1834 - 37. Certainly - due to the date of the Kings death - its production cannot POST DATE this 2nd batch period.

Pictures can be found in Iron Time version 1, pgs 35, 36 and 37 for those who own this type.

Marshall

[CSForrester]

I think Heydes book contains a lot of informations about the production of the first Iron Crosses in 1813 which can not be ignored. They come from the original sources which are still present in different german archives and may be there is more - but hard to find after 200 years and the chaotic changes in Germany - especially in Berlin. Documents of GOK, Kriegsministerium, Militärkabinett a.s.o. "travelled" through the city of Berlin, some were destroyed during the war.
I have written down the concentrated informations Heyde published in his book, i dont have the courage to translate it. Perhaps Trevor can translate it without changing the sense and intention of these informations.

This sources show clearly how difficult it was to build up a production for a large number of identical crosses. Cores were casted in Berlin and Gleiwitz, the frames were added in Berlin and Breslau - that all still in 1813.

Happy New Year from Germany
Markus

1813

27.Februar Im Hauptquartier Breslau geht Schreiben des Kriegsrates Einsiedel aus Berlin ein, dem ein erster Entwurf des EK von unbekannter Hand (Einsiedel ?) und ein entsprechendes Wachsmodel beigefügt sind.

28.Februar Der von Einsiedel eingebrachte Vorschlag zur Form des EK liegt FW III vor und wird von ihm abgelehnt.

13.März Eigenhändige Skizze zum EK (verschollen) und Anordnung des Königs, daß der Geheime Oberbauassessor Schinkel dieser Zeichnung entsprechend den Entwurf exakt ausführen und die Proportionen für EK II und GK abstimmen soll (1:1 und „noch einmal so gross“)

17.März Mit den sonstigen Angelegenheiten des EK und der Beschaffung der Kreuze wird der Geheime Kabinettsrat Albrecht betraut.

20./21. März Schinkels zeichnerische Entwürfe des EK, die Originalzeichnung des Königs und ein erstes Probekreuz (Wachsmodel ?) werden an den Geheimen Kabinettsrat Albrecht im HQ Breslau expediert.

22. März Schinkel wird mit der Ausführung, d.h. Überwachung der Anfertigung des EK in der Königlichen Eisengiesserei Berlin und bei Berliner Silberarbeitern beauftragt.

10. April Anweisung an GOK Berlin (aus HQ Breslau) sofort 500 EK giessen zu lassen, davon 300 sogleich und 200 später bei Gold-(Silber-)arbeitern fassen zu lassen.

11.April Geheimer Staatsrat von Klewitz beim Berliner Goldarbeiter Runeke (nach Schneider: Neuwerker). Dort hätte er das Probekreuz (Schinkel ?) und sieben ungefasste (Platten) EK II vorgefunden. Runeke, an dessen Maschine (Anm.: zur Prägung der Stäbe mit den Rippen ?) etwas nicht in Ordnung gewesen sei, verspricht für „übermorgen“ vier Kreuze fertigzustellen, für Ende der kommenden Woche 90 insgesamt.

15.April Die erwähnten vier Kreuze werden an das HQ Breslau expediert.
Dieser erste Typ der Fassung aus dem Monat April 1813 entspricht wohl weitgehend dem Exemplar C4.

23.Mai Die Gleiwitzer Königliche Eisengiesserei wird vom Präses der GOK angewiesen, ebenfalls (neben Berlin) Platten für EK zu giessen.
Von Dierike bestellt 500 EK II und 100 (!) GK, die Fassung solle – trotz technischer Schwierigkeiten – in Breslau erfolgen.

26.Mai Major von Thile (HQ Breslau) schreibt an v. Dierike, 100 GK seien ja wohl etwas viel ......er bittet davon vorerst nur 6 Exemplare in Breslau für seinen Bestand fassen zu lassen, mahnt jedoch dringend „kleine Kreuze“ an.

[AlikN]

...Here is another 1813 IC type, IMO not one of "those on the picture". A Grand Cross
version of which some ~43 of these were presented to Prussian battalion fahnen.

Happy New Year Everyone!

Very cool looking flag top, I see 12 rivets construction holds thick halves of the cross together, probably two piece construction core back to back, so this is a top from the 1813...or made later?, ...core definitely different from any 1813GCs I have seen. ...So if the same battalion deserve a GC award in 1870 they would get a streamer(like a spangen on the ribbon) with 1870GCs on each side(page 63 Iron Time far right)...? ....what about the top next to it on the picture with an eagle..?



I have no horse in this race either, just trying to shop for one and need more knowledge on those.


Marshall your cross has a step to the core and was made 1830's, so what about the crosses without the step, falt core like this type when those were introduced?

[AlikN]

Here how on line translator does the work, please correct if anything needs to be.




27th February in the headquarters Wroclaw writing of the council of war Einsiedel from Berlin comes, the first draft of the EK of unknown hand (Einsiedel?) and a suitable wax model are added.
28th February the suggestion introduced by Einsiedel to the form of the EK is FW III and is rejected by him.
13th March own-handed sketch to the EK (missing) and arrangement of the king that confidential superstructure assistant judge Schinkel should explain the draft according to this drawing precisely and tune the proportions for EK II and GK (1:1 and „ once again so largely “)
17th March the confidential cabinet council Albrecht is entrusted with the other affairs of the EK and the procurement of the crosses
20./21st March Schinkels zeichnerische drafts of the EK, the original drawing of the king and the first test cross (wax model?) become to the confidential cabinet council Albrecht in Wroclaw HQ expediert.
22nd March Schinkel is instructed with the execution, i.e. supervision of the manufacture of the EK in the royal iron foundry Berlin and with Berlin silver workers.
10th April instruction in Berlin GOK (from Wroclaw HQ) immediately to let pour 500 EK to let catch of it 300 straight away and 200 later with gold (silver) arbeitern.
11th April confidential council of state of Klewitz with the Berliner goldworker Runeke (after tailor: Neuwerker). There he would have the test cross (Schinkel?) and seven uncalm (record)s EK II found. Runeke, in machine (n.: to the coinage of the sticks with the ribs?) a little bit has not been in order, promises for four crosses "the day after tomorrow" to finish, for the end of the next week 90 all together.
15th April mentioned four crosses become to Wroclaw HQ expediert.
This first type of the version from the April, 1813 probably corresponds to a great extent to the copy C4.
23rd May the Gleiwitzer royal iron foundry is depended by the Präses of the GOK to pour records for EK likewise (beside Berlin).
From Dierike orders 500 EK II and 100 (!) GK, the version should occur – in spite of technical difficulties – in Wroclaw.
26th May major of Thile (Wroclaw HQ) writes in v. Dierike, 100 GK are probably a little bit a lot ...... he asks of it for the time being only 6 copies in Wroclaw for his continuance to let touch, nevertheless, sends a reminder urgently „ to small crosses “.

[CSForrester]

The flag pole top shown here is one of the 42 originals awarded in 1814. They were different from the Grand Crosses, first version shown to King FW III was with a cross from an flat sheet of iron, black laquered. The King was "shocked" about the quality and ordered to make the crosses in flag pole tops also from casted iron. But they were not casted and assembled by the GOK but by the Kriegsministerium and this prefered other manufacturers.
The top with the eagle and the Iron Cross in an wreath of laurel leaf is the top awarded to the regiment Garde du Corps (in 1841 as i remember). They received a new standard in the style of an antique roman vexilium by that time with this special top.
The Iron Cross in this top is not a Grand Cross, it is a 1st class ! You can find a report in 1891 or 1892 in the "Fahnenakte" of the Kriegsministerium, in that time the GdC standard was heavy damaged and Wilhelm II. gave order to repair it and to take an Iron Cross 1 st class1813 from the Zeughaus to replace the missing one.

Regards
Markus

[CSForrester]

...the cross on the 1870 Grand-Cross-streamer and the cross in the top....

[streptile]

Hey Alikn,
I remember you posted that cross a while back and were considering buying it. For me, personally, that's a good one. If it's still available, and it's within your means, I'd get it. I'd say it's a "second batch," like the one Marshall has. The problems with buying one of the "first batches" have been well articulated by Brian.

Markus,
Wonderful photos and information, thank you! In this photo, the central EK is an 1813, and the one on the streamer is an 1870?

[CSForrester]

Yes, in 1840 the Regiment Garde du Corps had its 100s anniversary (see the streamer "Errichtet 1740") and Friedrich Wilhelm III. made a special birthday present with this new standard.
The eskadrons of the Regiment had standards very similar before 1806 but most were lost until 1813. The silver eagles were saved by an NCO of the regiment, but melted in that bad times to get some silver for coins and medals.
The new standard from 1840 got an Iron Cross 1st class in the wreath (like the quadriga on Brandenburger Tor) because the wreath was too small for a Grand Cross.
1871 the regiment got one of the 42 streamers with the GK 1870 because the top had already an Iron Cross.

Sorry for my bad english, hard stuff to explain with my few words ......

Markus