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**regular122** · 10-28-2009, 03:44 PM

You are right Saschaw. I never caught that before. All this time I looked at this document as one for his 50 Year Crown but it does not actually mention it. I am assuming he still received it.

That is what I love about these discussions. I learn something new all the time. Steve

**saschaw** · 10-28-2009, 05:37 PM

Crown... if he got anything with this document (and I can imagine this very well), it was a crown. Don't know where my thoughts were when I wrote "oaks"...

**speedytop** · 10-28-2009, 07:41 PM

Hi Steve,

"I never caught that before. All this time I looked at this document as one for his 50 Year Crown but it does not actually mention it. I am assuming he still received it."
"I learn something new all the time."

I suppose that you have read my contributions not properly?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=233646

And here especially Post 13 ff.

Regards
Uwe

**Les** · 10-28-2009, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by regular122 View Post

Les,

In each post above, I say 'possible,' 'likely', 'purported' etc. and offer Bojna's award as something that points to a possibility. I am not the only one that thinks Rothe may have had some involvement with the award between the wars. I say finding a photo of an Austrian wearing the award is rare because to date, I have seen none. Might one yet still be found? I don't know. It may be possible.

I make it quite clear that Rothe PlMs are suspect by nature. The purpose of this thread is to explore the possibility of their wear and manufacture prior to 1945 and I have discussed the things that might lead to that possibility above. I also ask and solicit help on this search. It would be insightful either to confirm or deny this as Rothe style pieces have swindled people for thousands over the years. I stay away from them because of that.

Still, many questions are routinely asked about Rothes, and I wanted to include at least the basics in identification of the shape and type, the VERY small numbers that might even qualify in the search and the unlikelihood of Rothes being awarded. I cannot prove they were NOT awarded, but it seems to me unlikely given the Wagner types in photos of Austrian recipients found to date.

Given Rothe's manufacture of other German awards, the Bojna piece and one purported to be a replacement from 1931, a possibility of private purchased Rothe manufacture from 1918 to 1931 is to me at least worth exploring. I hope this thread may contribute to that discussion, if even to confirm or to deny. Steve

Steve,

Probable, and likely aren't used in your presentation. Possible shows up once while referring to the Rothe firm being damaged during WWII, but it was possible for them to resume production of medals and orders post-war.

Purported does occur in reference to one "purportedly" belonging to von Bonja and speculation it was made by Rothe. The medal in question is discussed in Prussian Blue, but Rothe was not the only Austro-Hungarian medals and order manufacturer. What is often forgotten is the A-H Empire was a double monarchy with two offical seats of government, two governmental systems with their own areas of governance, a seperate Austrian and Hungarian army organization, etc. Rothe was one official house jeweler but not the only official jeweler.

There are more than one or two statements you make that are have no conditional or modifiers at all. In fact, the statements are made as if they are established facts with -no- solid documentation. To wit:

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The purpose of this thread will be to inform collectors about the basic characteristics of Rothe Style Pour le Merites and to create a repository of these types of PlMs for readers to view and study.
<o></o>
The focus will be on 1914-1945 pieces. It should be noted that very few Austrians were awarded the PlM and that vended items to recipients in the TR era would be quite rare as well. Consequently, nearly all Rothe style PlMs that appear today are fake. Still, it is certain that Austrians were awarded the PlM and that Rothe produced some examples as a jeweler during the awarded and TR period.<o></o>
<o></o>
<o>(2)</o>
Characteristics<o></o>
<o></o>
I will begin by covering the basic characteristics of the Rothe-style PlMs produced from the 1914-1945 period.

Where's the hypothetical or other modifing terms? What you've stated at least twice, is Rothe made PlMs during 1914-1918, and up through 1945. The claim/statement rests almost entirely on speculation and circumstantial offerings that do not hold up well to serious scrutiny.
<o></o>

To date, no one has demonstrated that Rothe actually made PlMs prior to 1945. There has been a considerable amount of speculation they have, "purported" medals supposedly belonging to various people have been invoked. The claims made, and speculation offered lacks true provenance, chains of ownership, and so on.

Von Bonja by the way was not an "Austrian" but a Croatian who was aligned with the Hungarian wing of the nation and army and whose title of nobility was Hungarian, not Austrian. His home was also closer to Budapest than Vienna. Von Bonja's date of award for the PlM was in November 1917, and three months later was promoted to full Feld-Marschal, decorated with the Maria Theresa Order (Austro-Hungary's highest military decoration for officers and carried with it a title of nobility). In the KuK Armee and the A-H Empire, the Maria Theresa took precedence over the PlM. Photos show after Feb 1918, show him wearing the MTO, and not jointly with the PlM.

You've pointed out Bonja died in 1920, and have also said his effects were taken from him, and his family is said to have replaced them in 1931. Any medal said to have been made for him, or "replaced" by his family could have been done after the war was over, and not necessarily made anywhere within the former German or Austro-Hungarian Empires. If speculation is the order of the day, why not order one from (neutral during WWI) Spain and have it shipped through Switzerland?

Instead of speculating, wouldn't this thread be better of being based on demonstrable facts?

Mentioning Hermann Historica and -another- PlM that is not a German made award raises the question whether one, or even both are what they are -purported- to be. Hermann Historica famously offered Ernst Udets PlM (purportedly made by Hammerle) on ebay a few years ago. How reputable Hermann Historica is....is a hypothetical I won't go into.

One "Austrian" awardee's medal not discussed in the above posts, is Franz Josef's. Previtera shows a photo of a PlM in the Zeughaus reputed to be his.

Typically, the award of the PlM was as a royal Prussian House award. It was not an Imperial award, and was paid for by the Prussian monarch out of royal funds. That said, an award by Wilhelm to a fellow monarch and wartime ally in all probability was done with medal and documents being provided by one fellow monarch to another. I tend to doubt Willy simply sent a document awarding Franz with a gong and said something to the effect, "if you really want one, you'll have to buy one or have it made for you, on your own." Custom and court etiquette would require similar treatment towards other allied heads of state.

**Les** · 10-28-2009, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by saschaw View Post

Crown... if he got anything with this document (and I can imagine this very well), it was a crown. Don't know where my thoughts were when I wrote "oaks"...

Sacha, you may be absolutely right. Prior to 1918, an officer who was awarded the Eichenlaube was not given another PlM and the oaks, but only a small box with the oaks and a new three-band neck ribbon. Custom and tradition would have suggested Osterkamp do about the same on the 50th anniversary presentation of crowns. During the 1960's there were many jewelers in and outside of Europe who could have made crowns for him.

Osterkamp provided Jacobs with a "new" PlM with a crown in the mid-1960's. Osterkamp was very methodical and from studying him would venture to suggest that he got whatever crowns were needed (for himself) and other 50 year vets, from the same source. For most of the vets getting them on the 50th year of the original award, that would have been a relatively narrow period of a few years during the 1960's. Look at Jacob's and you'll probably see what the others were like.

It's been suggested that Rothe's records and equipment were acquired by museums. If anyone really believes that, the files and documents kept by the firm may have contract dates, custom orders, and other information. To those who claim Rothe was made PlMs, Osterkamp's crowns, and so on, contact the Rothe family and ask where the files went, and then go for the files. The information in the files will not be specaulative at all.

Uwe, I agree with you there were -NO- official issues or awards of the PlM, crowns, etc by the Bundes Republik. "Replacements" or whatever one cares to call them would have been paid for by the veterans, or by the Ritters des Ordens organization funds. If someone such as Junger had a S&L post-war copy in his possession, that should not be taken to mean it was "issued" by anyone. He may have had to pay for it out of his own funds.

**regular122** · 10-29-2009, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

Hi Steve,

"I never caught that before. All this time I looked at this document as one for his 50 Year Crown but it does not actually mention it. I am assuming he still received it."
"I learn something new all the time."

I suppose that you have read my contributions not properly?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=233646

And here especially Post 13 ff.

Regards
Uwe

No Uwe, I am familiar with those comments. What I never caught before was that the word 'Crown' was not mentioned on the document for the 50-year award. Steve

**regular122** · 10-29-2009, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Les View Post

Steve,

Probable, and likely aren't used in your presentation.

I never claimed 'probable.' I said 'possible.' Likely is used many times. See post 10.

Originally posted by Les View Post

One "Austrian" awardee's medal not discussed in the above posts, is Franz Josef's. Previtera shows a photo of a PlM in the Zeughaus reputed to be his.

Typically, the award of the PlM was as a royal Prussian House award. It was not an Imperial award, and was paid for by the Prussian monarch out of royal funds. That said, an award by Wilhelm to a fellow monarch and wartime ally in all probability was done with medal and documents being provided by one fellow monarch to another. I tend to doubt Willy simply sent a document awarding Franz with a gong and said something to the effect, "if you really want one, you'll have to buy one or have it made for you, on your own." Custom and court etiquette would require similar treatment towards other allied heads of state.

Thanks for pointing out Franz Josef's award in Prussian Blue. I had overlooked it because it follows a Wagner type in appearance.

I could not agree more that the Emperor was given an award from Germany. In fact, I pointed out in the discussion above that the other Austrian recipients also appear to have German made awards in the photographs where it is possible to distinguish them.

I agree with you on Herman Historica. That is why I stated that was the 'story.' I mentioned it and placed the photo here because it was one of the few items discussed on an Austrian recipient where the award followed a Rothe appearance. You may also recall on a supposed Udet award with the cigars how I exposed the impossibility of the document with facts from Udet's flight record and wounds, etc. not squaring up with the period of documentation.

But where Herman Historica may be lacking in reliability, I do not hold the same view for other vendors such as Barry and Detlev. Unless I am mistaken, they believe Rothe produced pieces between the wars. That makes the study worth looking into.

I have stated that it was unlikely that Rothe awarded this medal but that I believed they produced it for purchase. Whether Bojna's award in Prussian Blue or the one shown here in detail were made by Rothe is not definitive. Stephen thinks Bojna's might be and Barry believes the one shown here was made by them in the 1930s. Whether they did or not is the topic open for discussion. I, like others, am searching for such evidence.

One thing I think we all agree on. Rothes should be viewed with great caution, and, as I stated earlier, I stay away from them. Steve

**Zepenthusiast** · 10-30-2009, 03:06 PM

From the look of it, I don't think there's much reason to doubt the cross below, from the HH sale, is a Rothe (if not a Rothe, it's one heck of a Rothe copy, kind of a copy squared!) Question is when was it actually made and was it really acquired by von Bonja's family in the early '30s. That one may consider not definitive, though there is at least a report to go by. That von Bonja's other award--the presumed original in PB--was made by Rothe is entirely speculative. Other than Stephen's noting it is not a Wagner or Godet and tossing out that maybe Rothe might have made it, there is nothing to connect it to Rothe in any fashion, am I wrong?

It seems it would make sense for Rothe to have made PlMs after '45, when it became illegal to do so in Germany. Prior to that, anyone with a right to one could have readily and more easily obtained it from Germany. Franz Joseph's cross is essentially identical to one of the 1866 PlMs in Prussian Blue, page 184-6. They have some characteristics which strongly suggest Godet made them...

Jim

**regular122** · 10-30-2009, 06:38 PM

You make some good points Jim. Although I will let Stephen speak for himself, he is also pretty guarded in his speculation on the Bojna award in Prussian Blue. I think one thing we can say is that it does not fit any sanctioned German maker pattern, leaving the possibility of an Austrian maker open.

I do not think the PlM was prohibited from manufacture after 1945 as it was well outside the TR prohibitions but I would defer to Uwe or others that have much more knowledge of the prohibitions and subsequent '57 laws than I do.

I think few would dispute the strong possibility that Rothe might have made awards after 1945. The question for this thread becomes more one of did they make them prior. With the firm now defunct, getting queries answered from them has been met with negative result. Even when the firms are still going, like S&L, I have still been unable to get my queries answered.

So, the search goes on. With the examples shown and with the opinion of some reputable collectors that they did produce examples in the 1930s, it seems worth exploring that they did. I welcome any leads to help us connect those dots. Steve

**speedytop** · 10-31-2009, 08:40 AM

Hi Steve,

"I do not think the PlM was prohibited from manufacture after 1945 as it was well outside the TR prohibitions but I would defer to Uwe or others that have much more knowledge of the prohibitions and subsequent '57 laws than I do."

It was not prohibited to make copies of the PlM, but there was also no official permission to do it.

Uwe

**Zepenthusiast** · 10-31-2009, 01:04 PM

I suppose from a practical standpoint, the devastation of Godet and Wagner's facilities would have made production of any medal challenging for some time (essentially forever). This likewise may have promoted an Austrian jeweler to step in?

Jim

**regular122** · 10-31-2009, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Zepenthusiast View Post

I suppose from a practical standpoint, the devastation of Godet and Wagner's facilities would have made production of any medal challenging for some time (essentially forever). This likewise may have promoted an Austrian jeweler to step in?

Jim

Well, that makes sense. But we do know that Steinhauer u. Lueck survived and did make awards later. But the proliferation of awards from makers such as Souval of Austria seem to add some validity to what you suggest.

Does anyone have any catalog from Rothe that is pre-1945? Steve

**Les** · 11-03-2009, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by speedytop View Post

Hi Steve,

"I do not think the PlM was prohibited from manufacture after 1945 as it was well outside the TR prohibitions but I would defer to Uwe or others that have much more knowledge of the prohibitions and subsequent '57 laws than I do."

It was not prohibited to make copies of the PlM, but there was also no official permission to do it.

Uwe

Uwe,

The Allied Control Commission, which was the governing organization of Germany after May 1945, made wearing, displaying, selling, or manufacturing -all- military awards illegal. That included all medals, awards, etc, made before 1933. Imperial or Kaiserreich awards were included in the Allied occupation bans.

In May 1949, the BRD's "Grundgesatz" was approved by the western Allies, but did not include a German military organization, etc. Technically, west and east Germany were occupied by the former WWII era allies, until the 1990 final treaty between the "Allies" and Germany. The occupation regulations and laws did not vanish entirely in 1949, although many of them were formally revoked, or simply ignored.

In November 1955, the western Allies approved the formation of the Bundeswehr and the modification of the German constitution. In 1956, question arose regarding the use of medals and decorations awarded prior to the formation of the BRD and the Bundeswehr. The question remained uncertain until the regulations of 1957.

**Les** · 11-03-2009, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by regular122 View Post

Does anyone have any catalog from Rothe that is pre-1945? Steve

Between 1938-1945, Austria was part of Germany, and German laws would have applied. With the introduction of LDO regulations in 1941, theoretically, LDO regulations would have applied to Rothe's productions.

I've been asking and looking for pre-1945 Rothe and LDO catalogues showing a PlM in them for over ten years, and so far, no one has been able to show me that information. Good luck...

In the earlier part of this thread, "Rothe PlMs" were described in considerable detail.

"<o>(2)</o>
Characteristics<o></o>
<o></o>
I will begin by covering the basic characteristics of the Rothe-style PlMs produced from the 1914-1945 period."

Not one documented Rothe madeis known, yet there is a description of their "basic characteristics". Since there are no known examples, that description is not really factual.

Citing dealers who -think- Rothe made PlMs prior to 1945, is entirely conjecture and as such, does not provide concrete facts. Anyone can voice an opinion, but for the purposes of establishing whether Rothe did or did not make PlMs, prior to 1945, let's focus on facts, and not get too involved with speculation or opinions. There's enough speculation to go around, and solid facts that Rothe actually made PlMs based on what has been presented thus far, is at best speculative.
.

**VtwinVince** · 11-03-2009, 06:40 PM

Interesting and informative thread. Les, don't forget that the BRD does award the PLM for Arts and Sciences. My uncle is a current member of the order.

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