PLM Stolen from German Post

[Brien]

I know this forum is for "original" Imperial awards, but I thought this network might help.

I recently had a 1957er S&L Pour Le Merite stolen in the German Postal service before leaving Germany.

The PLM was without ring or ribbon and has a small chip in the enamel on the right 6 O'Clock reverse side. I will try to include a photo from the seller. I don't know about Germany, but here in the US stealing from the mail is a Federal offense.

If anyone happens to see this PLM please contact me. The Seller and I would be most grateful

I am sure that if this happened to me, it can happen to any collector. I am extremely nervous about purchasing anything from Germany again.

Attached is a picture of the reverse with the chipped enamel location

Brien

[regular122]

Brien,

That's very sad news. And while it is an S&L, it is still an original government sanctioned award that even versions of which, actual recipients wore and were issued by the Federal Republic. We should all be alert to the specific chipped area and better pics would help but I realize they may not be possible. Hope it turns up. Steve

[Steve Campbell]

What is a 1957 PLM? Did the design change and if so why? I can see it called a replacement piece but a 57? Thought that only applied to the redesigned de nazified Third Reich awards. The picture posted looks like the design may have changed. What's up?

[Brien]

S&L 1957er

Steve,

See this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=S%26L+PLM

What is a 1957 PLM? Did the design change and if so why? I can see it called a replacement piece but a 57? Thought that only applied to the redesigned de nazified Third Reich awards. The picture posted looks like the design may have changed. What's up?

[ccj]

I know your pain... I've suffered two great losses in the mail over the years, both rare and irreplaceable.

[Steve Campbell]

Yes that thread helped clear things up. I too lost a mint German States cross in the mail and have not seen one offered since.

[Dete]

Hi Brien,
did you recieve a package number from the seller. The german mail is not so bad, my original PLM was gone for a day and with this number you can exactly proof the way of the package and if it s really stolen they pay for it( when the package was insured).
regards
Dete

[speedytop]

Hi Brien,

sorry to hear such terrible news.
I hope, that the German postal service will bring back that piece, or will (must?) pay for it.


Hi regular 122,

"it is still an original government sanctioned award that even versions of which, actual recipients wore and were issued by the Federal Republic."

Such a piece, produced post WW II, in 1953, 1957 or 1960, is not a in that time "sanctioned award", and it is not "issued by the Federal Republic".

It is a well done cross, but it is quite simply a post WW II copy.

Please, Brien and Steve, see this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=201608

Sorry!

Regards
Uwe

[regular122]

Uwe,

I respectfully disagree with you about S&L PlMs only can be classified as 'post-war copies' and not being sanctioned or issued by the Federal Republic based on clear evidence.

We are in agreement as to issues with the name '57er' or any of that hairsplitting. Fine.

But to say that this award was never sanctioned or issued by the Federal Republic as a replacement, or a '50-year Crown Issue' defies clear evidence to the contrary. Among the several PlM holders that lived until 1968, Otto Hersing, Friedrich Christiansen, Arthur Laumann, and Ernst Junger were known to have owned S&L pieces and crowns and were issued the '50 Year Crown' PlM by the Federal Republic in 1967-68. Walter Caspari is known to have worn a government replaced S&L PlM.

This is the same as when say Eddie Rickenbacker, awarded the Medal of Honor in 1930 for actions in 1918 would request a replacement Medal of Honor in 1960 and receive it from the US government. They send him one. It is not fake, is not a World War I style with no neck ribbon, but rather the later approved neck-ribbon design and is sent with the compliments of the USA. It would very much be a 'real' Medal of Honor for a WWI ace issued and sanctioned by the government--regardless of who made them and when. Same thing with Walter Caspari's S&L replacement PlM.

Junger, Hersing and Christiansen's Crown S&L PlMs were awarded in 1967-68.

If you doubt me, here are several pictures that may be helpful. Steve

1) Ernst Junger's S&L PlM on display at Haus Wilfingen

[regular122]

2) Otto Hersing's S&L PlM.

[regular122]

3) Walter Caspari's S&L PlM. This was a requested replacement, not a 50-year award as he died in 1962.

[regular122]

4) And finally, Friedrich Christiansen's 50-Year Crown Award Document---issued and sanctioned by the Federal Republic. Thanks for entertaining the opposing view. Steve

[speedytop]

Hi Steve,

it is very fine, to agree in one point.


But I disagree in all the other points, sorry.

"..and were issued the '50 Year Crown' PlM by the Federal Republic in 1967-68."
"...defies clear evidence to the contrary."

Sorry, but where is the clear evidence for the Federal Republic?

I can see a nice and really seldom document, handed out by a private association:

"Die Ritterschaft des Ordens Pour le merite"

It is a very honourable old association. But that is not the "Federal Republic".

And in that document this association certify, that this man, Gen. d. Flg. a.D. Friedrich Christiansen, wear the PlM 50 years. And for the jubilee of 50 years wearing this decoration, the association present/hand out this document, with congratulations.

It is not an award document, it is handed out, presented (überreicht).
It is not issued or sanctioned by the Federal Republic, it is a purely private document from a private association.

You show us some PlM:

Ernst Jünger's S&L PlM on display at Haus Wilfingen.
Did Jünger lost his original, that they could not present it?
This is a copy.

Walter Caspari's S&L PlM. This was a requested replacement.
"...government replaced..."
A requested replacement you can have with another original or with a copy. This is a copy. It is not government replaced.


"...were known to have owned S&L pieces and crowns..."
"50 Year Crown PlM"

Sorry, what is a "crown" or a "50 Year Crown"?

In that document I cannot find a hint for a presented PlM or a presented 50 Year Crown (whatever it is).

Is it possible, that the private association "Die Ritterschaft des Ordens Pour le merite" made with the document a present to that men, as a jubilee gift?
A fine copy, made by S&L?


"...were known to have owned S&L pieces and crowns and were issued the '50 Year Crown' PlM".
That mean, that they had, before the jubilee, S&L pieces and crowns, and in that jubilee date the 50 Year Crown PlM was handed over them?

Than there are 4 pieces ????:
S&L piece
crown (?)
50 Year Crown PlM (?)
document

Sorry, I don't understand that.


To clarify something:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite

There is the Pour le Merite as a military order, from 1704-1918. And 1918 is the latest date for issues, awards and whatever.

Wikipedia:
"The award was abolished with Kaiser William II's abdication as King of Prussia on 9 November 1918."

There is the Pour le merite in a civil class, from 1842 up to the present (with interruptions).

Wikipedia:
"In 1952, the President of West Germany, Theodor Heuss, revived the civil order as an autonomous organization under the protection of the German President (although it is not a state order like the Bundesverdienstkreuz)."

Under the protection, and only for the civil class.
There is absolute nothing like that for the military class.

Regards
Uwe

[Michael Fay]

stolen in the German postal service

[QUOTE=Brien;2107312]I know this forum is for "original" Imperial awards, but I thought this network might help.

"I recently had a 1957er S&L Pour Le Merite stolen in the German Postal service before leaving Germany."
"I am sure that if this happened to me, it can happen to any collector. I am extremely nervous about purchasing anything from Germany again."

Dear Brien, I will not address the validity of the medals as I know nothing on the subject, however,I have had about 4 items disapear on the German side myself. Once a good bit of purchasing cash was stolen! Very painful and irritating. While there are mail problems everywhere, I was told by various postal employees about what they called "Mail Pirates" in Europe that have to be working within the postal system.
That being said, I still have had lots of successfully shipped items arrive from Germany after my losses. I always pay for Luftpost(airmail) and Insurance-which is now too expensive. If only to make it more dangerous for the mail Pirates to try and steal.
--Michael F.

[regular122]

I've made my case on S&Ls. I've shown pictures. I've provided that the actual PlM recipients certainly considered these S&Ls to be real awards. And even in this thread, to think that anyone seriously discussing the PlM would question the validity of a 50-year crown is somewhat amazing to me. That is pretty common knowledge for even the mildly informed on this order and many Imperial orders for that matter.

People can believe what they wish. I will always consider that S&L PlMs have a special place beyond a fake or mere copy. Post war? Yes. Authentic? Yes. Regards, Steve