1870 EK1 Prinzen - opinions solicited

[streptile]

Hello board members,
I am a new member and this is my first thread. Yesterday I posted a thread on
the GMIC forums in 1939 EKs asking for help identifying a cross I've had in my
collection for years. To my great surprise it turned out to be a well-known fake,
despite being very convincing. WAF's own Ben Bijker confirmed it.

I am now a bit chastened, and would like to put an EK question to the
Imperial enthusiasts among you.

I have the chance to buy this 1870 EK1 Prinzen at a decent price:


Here's what I know about it: Silver rims, blackened iron center,
36mm x 36mm, thin pin setup, supposedly dates from Jubilee c.1895.
Now, I was initially a bit skeptical, but after doing some research I'm
a bit more confident. I'd like to show my research and have your opinions.

Below is this cross for sale (Right) next to a known original (Left)
(p.116 in S.T.Previtera's "The Iron Time" 1st Edition):

(I know that there are some fakes in "The Iron Time," but the cross above is attributed.)

Just by eye I think it compares very favorably. The known original is also
36mm sq. and has a thin pin on the reverse. It is also known to date from
the jubilee period, c. 1895.

I superimposed the cross for sale at 50% opacity on top of the known original
to see if the core details align. Here is the two crosses offset to show opacity:


And here they are aligned:


Now, the core details align perfectly. The date, which is quite distinctive,
is identical. The W and crown are identical also.

I also counted the beads on two arms, and the bead count is identical.

My concerns are, simply: I have not been able to see better quality
photos, or photos of the reverse. Also, the small flaw in the beading
on the lower right (facing) of the 6-o'clock arm.

However, given the amount of evidence pointing to it's similarity to a
known original, I am inclined to go for it. Can anyone offer me any advice?

Thanking you in advance,
Trevor

PS: I am very happy to have disovered a community as interested in this
subject as I am. I've been at this for about 12 years and have a few nice
little EKs in my collection that I am looking forward to sharing with you here.
Mostly I am looking forward to learning a lot from you.

[Andy K.]

EK I 1870 Prinzen

Hello Trevor:

Could you please post some photos of the back side of the EK on the top?

Andy

[streptile]

Hello Trevor:

Could you please post some photos of the back side of the EK on the top?

Andy

Unfortunately I don't have access to photos of the reverse. All I know is that it is a thin needle system, as is the "known original" cross used for comparison below.

[Roglebk]

Hi Trevor, it does not match any of the EKI Prinzen i have on file but it matches a known original EKII Prinzen, think that one was a "1895 jubileé model" as well. For what it's worth i like it. A very good method for comparing, never thought of that before, what program do you use? This method can be used for comparing a lot of questionable stuff, from EK Spangen to different worn dies for frames and cores. Guess it's a bit of work to get the pics the same angle and size?

[Don D.]

I think you will find several good threads here on real and fake prinzens. The stepped core design is widely faked and I have doubts it was in use during that time period.

[gregM]

I have seen one similar before but I am not sure if it is a match
or not. If you can get better close-up pictures it would really help.

One of our members has a 2nd class that's close. I wil send off
a PM and ask him to take a look.

[streptile]

Greg wrote: "One of our members has a 2nd class that's close. I wil send off
a PM and ask him to take a look."

and Carl wrote: "it matches a known original EKII Prinzen, think that one was a "1895 jubileé model" as well."

...good signs, I think. Greg, if you could let me know if you get a reply from the 2nd class Prinzen owner, that'd be great.

Don: despite the way it looks, I do not believe this has a stepped-core design. The beading rims cast shadows on the core that make it appear that way. Unfortunately I do not think that close-up photos - or any additional photos - will be possible. I shall have to make my decision based on this one alone.

I am about to look through the boards for info on 1870 Prinzens per your advice. Thanks.

And Carl: I use Photoshop for the comparison overlay method. Of course, it helps to have one of the two crosses "in-hand" so that you can photograph it at whichever angle matches the known-original photo. In this case I just ended up lucky and the two pictures were from sort-of the same angle. I just drop the opacity slider to 50% on the top one and match it up as best as I can. There are plenty of crosses I have rejected over the years for failing this test: a supposed I. Wagner 1870EK1 for $750.00 - that kind if thing.

Re the Prinzen in question here: As convincing to me as the core details' matching is the fact that the details placement is identical as well: the distance from date to W and W to crown is the same, and while the cores sit at a slightly different angles within the frame, I think that's to be expected with these, right?

[Marc Garlasco]

Details seem to match mine, 1870 on right of course:

[streptile]

Great, thank you all for the effort.

They are also a perfect match - as far as I can tell with my eye and my "photoshop overlay" method with George Stimson's example shown in post #8 of this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=1870+prinzen

So I think I'm going to do it. One more quick question... hopefully not a can of worms. I think the price is quite good at -----. Agreed? Or too much?

Trevor

[Marc Garlasco]

I would pay more than that!

[Don D.]

Good luck and don't forget to show it when it arrives.

[streptile]

I've posted my overlay study with George Stimson's 70EK2 Prinzen for interest's sake:

His cross:


The cross in question overlayed at 50% opacity showing perfct match-up of core details:

I hope it's okay that I use another member's photo - a mod no less - without permission here. If not, please advise and it'll be removed and never happen again.

So, I think it's fair to say that this is a match with known good ones. I'm going to buy it and will post closeups or the OS and RS when it arrives.

I want to thank you all. Please continue the conversation here; I won't be able to make payment til Monday, so if anyone dissents from the consensus, I want to know!
Trevor

[Biro]

I've been remiss and haven't renewed my membership fee so can not post attachments, but I have the same Prinzen 1870 EK2 as George and Marc and for what it's worth, this core type is one of the few I have faith in.

But then I would say that, wouldn't I!

Marshall

[streptile]

Great to hear that from you, thanks.

I'll be sure to post photos when it arrives.

Best,
Trevor

[streptile]

Hi Imperialists,

I received this cross today. To be honest, I've never had a known real Prinzen 1870 in-hand.

I know there are some of you who have a 2nd Class version of this core; two are posted in this thread.

I am posting multiple large photos for opinions of this 1st Class. Rather than say what I think about this cross, I'd really like to hear from knowledgeable WAF members first. I am especially interested in how this one compares - frame and core - to others' 2nd Class examples. Reading this forum lately has made me very cautious - not to say paranoid - about authenticity. I will happily post more photos and answer any questions.

Dimensions are 35.65mm(h) x 35.80(w). 3-piece. Magnetic core.

Based on these pictures, what do you think?



















Please post informed opinions. Thank you! Trevor