A Study of the Wagner Style PlM

[regular122]

Yes Erick, the story of Udet buying a 'wearer's copy' is totally legit in my book and Udet's! But...he purchased a Godet. Here is a summary of Ernst Udet's own story from his book 'Mein Fliegerleben.'

First, he was grounded from an ear infection and sent home by Richthofen on April 6th, 1918--the day of his 23rd victory. When he arrived in Munich, he was tended to by his family doctor and spent time at home. On April 9th, a telegram informing him of the award of the PlM came to the house. Udet had been in town. His mother told him the news when he came home and bestowed a paper and yarn medal she had made around his neck--his first PlM!

The next day, he tried to find a PlM to wear and went to a jeweler on Theatinerstrasse. He even bumped into PlM recipient Wenninger and asked if he had a spare but instead Wenninger gave him the name of a Berlin firm (most probably Godet) that he could telegram and get it in a couple of days. This is likely the one seen worn in the picture below. There are also pics of him wearing a Wagner, presumably his awarded piece. Steve

[bosungus]

Hi regular122,
Your posting of the Wagner typology 09-12-2008, 02:30 PM is fascinating and so imformative. I have studied it considerably. I have a PLM that possesses all the characteristics of the wartime wagner but does not have any mark. It also has the u-r connected. In reading through the forums, I understand if I'm reading them correctly that silver wagners in some cases had these added characteristics. As a new member I don't believe I'm able to post an image at this time.
Can you comment on possible exceptions.
Thanks Bosungus

[regular122]

Hi regular122,
Your posting of the Wagner typology 09-12-2008, 02:30 PM is fascinating and so imformative. I have studied it considerably. I have a PLM that possesses all the characteristics of the wartime wagner but does not have any mark. It also has the u-r connected. In reading through the forums, I understand if I'm reading them correctly that silver wagners in some cases had these added characteristics. As a new member I don't believe I'm able to post an image at this time.
Can you comment on possible exceptions.
Thanks Bosungus

Welcome to the forum and discussions. I would be happy to post pics for you in a new thread. PM sent with contact info. Thanks, Steve

[bosungus]

Hi, just became and an Associate member. I will attempt to post image.
Thanks, Bosungus

[bosungus]

Hi, I was only able to place one image.

[bosungus]

Hi,

[bosungus]

Image

[bosungus]

Hi

[Montgomery Burns]

The purpose of this thread will be to inform collectors about the basic characteristics of Wagner Style Pour le Merites and to create a repository of these types of PlMs for readers to view and study.

The focus will be on 1914-1918 pieces. In addition to the straight Wagner wartime and a handful of post WWI pieces to surface, it will also include ‘Wagner-type’ pieces that are recognized as likely being made from Wagner dies. The most prominent of these is the Friedländer. Another less common maker (or rather 'vendor') is J. H. Werner.

I want to be respectful of pictures that have been sent to me before from many of you and will credit all of you (unless requested to remain anonymous) with your pics that I post to the extent that I know them. I will post nothing that I have not been given permission to use if the owner is known. I will correct any pics that do not give proper credit if I left it out. I also hope collectors on this forum will post their Wagner type PlMs here even if they have been posted in older threads. The idea is to gather them here for a single point of study.

My research on the firm of Wagner & Söhne has produced very little. Unlike the great info on Godet, I can find only thin info on Wagner, which is surprising. The firm apparently began as a partnership with the Georg Hossauer jewelers known as Sy and Wagner around 1859. They vended many of Hossauer’s medals with Hossauer marks until Georg’s death in 1874. The earliest known cross to bear a Wagner mark that I have researched is from 1866. By 1878, the firm became Johann Wagner & Sons. Any additional info on the firm's origins, heyday and decline is most welcome. It is known that the firm was based in Berlin.

I will begin by covering the basic characteristics of the Wagner-style PlMs produced from the 1914-1918 period.

The Baroque Ribbon Loop - The first and most obvious feature is the ‘Baroque’ loop at the top of the cross that held the ribbon suspension ring. Only very early Wagners had the ‘pie wedge’ style like the Godets. Wagner apparently changed to the ‘Baroque’ loop some time around 1914. Beware of any ‘baroque’ ‘Wagner’-style loop on a PlM and then marked JguS or some such. It was not done. Yet you see it all the time on Spanish and Rothe fakes on eBay.

The Wagner Jeweler's Mark – Earliest Wagner marks appear on the Grand Cross versions of the PlMs in the 1860s and were marked with JW&S for Johann Wagner & Söhne. For the standard PlM, it is assumed that the gold content prohibited a hammer punch, so the arms were gently marked with a filed ‘W.’ The earliest I have been able to find these marks is 1866. The proper marks for a 1914-1916 gold piece would be a 'W' in straight jeweler hatches joined to make the letter near the center of the bottom arm ray edge. With the face of the cross up, the ‘W’ would be etched rightside up on the right arm ray edge but abutting the center.

For a 1916-1918 silver-gilt piece, an imprinted 'W' that makes a neat appearance when stamped is usually found, as the metal content allowed for a punch. 1916-1918 Wagners had the ‘W’ along with the ‘938’ content mark almost always on the bottom arm ray edge. With the face of the cross up, the ‘938’ mark would be stamped rightside up on the left ray edge and the ‘W’ mark stamped or etched right side up on the right ray edge.

That is the norm. There are exceptions found on awarded PlMs. The ‘W’ and ‘938’ can be found together on the left arm ray edge and at least one example awarded to Franz von Behr had the ‘W’ and ‘938’ upside down when compared to the other.

The Crown and F - The Crown is rather plain, unlike Godet crowns. It has simple, round appearance. Wagner pieces are notorious for not being chased on the lettering or crown, but when they are found chased, it is often just a few dots on the crown and on much older pieces. The crown base extends past the ‘F’ more on the right than on the left. The ‘F’ is very closely positioned to the base of the crown.

Letters - ‘Scored’ or engraved ‘chase’ marks along the details of the letters by a jeweler are nearly always absent on Wagner pieces. While less ornate, this gives the Wagner a very clean and elegant appearance, highlighting the excellent enamel rather than the lettering.

Center - Godet crosses have a very thin ‘waist,’ measuring only about 1mm but Wagners are slightly larger at about 2mm.

Eagles - The eagles are stout and smooth winged rather than long and feather-mottled like Godets. Even the bodies, while cross-hatch feathered, do not have a mottled appearance. This makes them, like the lettering, less detailed but elegant nevertheless. The heads cockaded but usually only on the back of the head. The heavily furrowed brow of the Godet eagle is absent. There are some exceptions to this on late war Wagners but the furrowing is slight when compared to Godet eagles. Wagner beaks are only slightly open but the cuts are usually deep. A few examples have melded beaks but this is by far the exception. Like Godet eagles, Wagners have prominent feet with the legs ‘pushing’ against the sides of the cross. But unlike Godets, they have a distinctive rounded ‘drum stick’ shape with prominent ‘knee caps.’ This is one of the easiest features to identify a Wagner. The tail feathers are formed by five feathers—two sets parallel and a bottom feather. Unlike Godet eagle tails, the feathers blend into the cross notch rather than have a stepped or cut appearance that is joined to the notch. There are other distinctive features about true Wagner eagles that will not be discussed here to protect against fakers.


The items described above are shown below on this composite of both gold and silver-gilt versions of Wagner and Wagner style PlMs. A special thanks to Andreas and Eric N for the pics and to many others who wished to remain anonymous in pics that follow.

I will be posting more pics below and I welcome all members to post their Wagner and Wagner style pieces here, even if posted in old threads. More to come on the Friedländer and J. H. Werner PlM variants of the Wagner style. Thanks, Steve

found out by the following picture that the W was not only used by Wagner,

or is Wagner maybe Werner ?

dont know but I think the picture belongs here

regards kay

[sang0plateau]

hi and thank you for this great thread!
were there any examples to bear both the "W" and the "800" mark, or only the "938" has been found on Wagner pieces?