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Pour le Merite "Hot Potato"

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    #16
    Big bucks...

    ... the subject of my original post on this thread apparently sold for over $2,500. The buyer is a well known U.S. dealer, who apparently does not read this forum. Expect to see it offered on their web site in the near future for at least $5,000.

    By the way, in a previous posting here I mentioned the copy by Hemmerle, and said "there is evidence that it wasn't made post-WW2." What I meant to say is "there is NO evidence that it wasn't made post-WW2." My momma always told me to look out for those double negatives.

    Tim
    "Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!" - President Merkin Muffley

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      #17
      [QUOTE=Tim Tezer]I kind of hate to step into this, but how else do you learn new things?

      There is a Pour le Merite offered on Ebay at the following link:

      <snip>

      Here's another one that's been on eBay for less than 24 hours, and the feeding frency has begun. The bidding has already gone past the US$1000 mark.

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

      For starters, I don't like the case one bit.... I'll let others pick this one apart. On the "plus" side, the seller responded to an email and said this "It came out of an antique shop in Los Angeles if you can believe that and has been in a collection for 20 years."

      Les
      (1st post to the Forum and starting out as the newest "FNG")

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        #18
        Originally posted by sprevitera
        The piece is not owned by me but will appear in my upcoming reference on the PLM, with the usual detail.
        Oh..great! After I bought "the Iron Time" I spent every spare minute for almost a year looking for a period issued 1870 EK2. Now you are going to plant PLM in this brain with a new book?

        I might need therapy.

        Comment


          #19
          Pilots shown in photos with two different plms

          Originally posted by Tim Tezer
          Steve, Brian, Rick, et al.,

          Regarding the Godet pieces, with the pie-slice suspension style, I have seen contemporary photos of a recipient wearing one. Naturally, it is impossible to say if it was private purchase or actually awarded. The recipient in question is Max Immelman - study every photo you can find of him and you will see that in many of the photos he is clearly wearing a pie-slice suspension PLM.

          It's interesting to note, however, that Oswald Boelke, who was given the award at the same time and in the same investiture ceremony as Immelman, is never seen wearing a pie-slice suspended piece in any of his photos. That supports the contention that Immelman may have purchased a wearing piece from Godet.

          I don't believe that I have ever seen any photos of these famous recipients that were taken on the day of their investiture. That would make for an interesting study.

          Tim
          This is my first post. Thanks to all in this forum that have made available their knowledge. I only wish I had known of it earlier. Would have saved me time and a small bit of money that I got burned on.

          With regard to Tim and Steve's comments on Immelman you have to consider that Immelman and Boelke were the very first pilot recipients of the plm. Given that the awards were presented on 13 January 1916, it is entirely likey that the 'pie-shaped' award was issued to Immelman. It is also just as possible given this early 1916 date that Boelke was the one that opted for the different style--not Immelman.

          As to comments about pie-shaped awards being worn by post 1916 recipients, one has only to turn to photographs once again to see the proof. Take Goring for example. All of his 1918 and early pics show him with the baroque-style issue award. But if you look at his surrender pics, he is clearly wearing a dark-enameled Godet-style award. This same award can be seen in his wartime Field Marshall uniforms pics.

          One soldier that is shown wearing both types in wartime photographs is Ernst Udet. This is explained in his memoirs 'Mein Fliegerleben.' He found out he was awarded the medal while at home and wanted desperately to have it for wear on leave. He bumped into U-Boat ace Wenninger and asked if he had a spare. He did not but gives him the name of a Jeweler in Berlin. Udet had his medal two days later for wear. One can assume the pictures of his baroque style medal such as on Sanke card 653 were his issue piece.

          As I read all the threads about jewelers' copies, it is surprising that none of this is mentioned other than Goring 'apparently had' a second award. Hope this helps. I can't post pics or I would post the examples spoken of above. Steve

          Comment


            #20
            [quote=regular122]
            With regard to Tim and Steve's comments on Immelman you have to consider that Immelman and Boelke were the very first pilot recipients of the plm. Given that the awards were presented on 13 January 1916, it is entirely likey that the 'pie-shaped' award was issued to Immelman. It is also just as possible given this early 1916 date that Boelke was the one that opted for the different style--not Immelman.

            Although Immelman and Boelcke both got their PlM's on the same day, and it would be easy to assume both received the same design.....that may or may not have happened. We don't have photos of the two men on the day they were invested, so we don't know whether both received Godet or Wagner types, or if they received two different types between them. We do know the Orders Chacellory was buying from Wagner and Godet who produced different designs, and it -is- feasible that the clerk(s) handling the imperial request, took whatever there was off the shelf, and didn't concern themselves about what was in the box. Les

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              #21
              Jeweler's Pour le Merite awards on the Aces

              I agree Les. I think all of that is possible, although you only see them wearing one respective type--and each is different. Any discussion of Immelman's different Blue Max has to take into account the early date of his award as an explanation that could rule out a private purchase. Most all of the others had the baroque-style mount given the date of their award and the regulations in effect.

              The two exceptions that I've been able to find in photos are the jeweler's copies of Goring and Udet--Udet's being noteworthy because a photo exists of him in 1918 wearing the pie-shaped medal and he mentions its wartime purchase in his memoirs. Goring's copy appears predominantly in 1940s photos.

              I thought Goring's and Udet's examples worth commenting on because it reinforces Tim's comment about a wartime jeweler purchase and also about no evidence of post war variants other than the Wagner-Friedlander or Godet type.

              I suppose the Schickle / Hemmerle could be considered Godet? And the Meybauer is virtually identical to the Godet as well, the back excepting. Is it fair to say that the Wagner-Friedlander, Godet and Meybauer types were 1920s and 30s? And that the Schickle, Hemmerle types have evidence for at least pre-1945? Steve

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                #22
                I'm almost certain that a PLM that Detleve sold once upon a time and that was ground dug or found somewhere was a Friedlander piece. I want to say it had OaKs too, but I don't remember. There may be a picture of if somewhere on this site.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Daniel Cole
                  I'm almost certain that a PLM that Detleve sold once upon a time and that was ground dug or found somewhere was a Friedlander piece. I want to say it had OaKs too, but I don't remember. There may be a picture of if somewhere on this site.
                  Dan, ... I saved the image although I can't post it here. SP's "Prussian Blue" has a photo of the badge, and yes it has "oaks." ... Regarding the Wagner-Friedlaender "types", my personal opinion is that they were all made by Wagner, and the ones marked "Fr" were in all probability only marked and sold by Friedlaender, but not made by that firm. On another forum, I've discussed the presence of die flaws on both "Wagner" and "Friedlaender" PlMs that could only have occurred on "both types" if they were made from the same exact dies. ... Steve, you've been reading the archives ! The mention of a "Schickle" type only occurrs on this site, and perhaps one other forum. The "Schickle" PlM is known from a catalogue drawing, although no known one with Schickle markings exists, or has been -positively- identified. The "Godet" example formerly owned by Tony Colson, and referred to as a "Schickel" has been sold to another collector, and currently is being studied for it's similarity to post war Godet made pieces. Whether there is a Schickle / Hammerle connection....that's something I can't say, because I'm not certain what PlMs (if any) that Hammerle made or sold. He could have bought PlMs from another firm, and re-sold them. The Hammerle firm is still in existence, and rumor has it they still have all their original dies. Is it possible that any PlM their firm might have made, would have in-house dies that might still be around? ... No one is arguing that some recipients bought their own personal copies of a PlM to wear. There is evidence for that. The original was technically not owned by the recipient, but had to be returned to the Zeughaus on the death of the recipient, or paid for by the family. Those who bought a "second" award, were in actuality, buying their own personal medal that did not have to be returned to the "state" when they died. ... What is a thorny issue, though is how many "copies" were purchased as "wearing copies", if they were any different from the ones purchased by the Orders Commission (probably no differences at all...?), and how common the practise was. The problem with any claim, is that documentation is important to backing up stories or claims, because far too many unsubstantiated claims and speculation gets passed about and taken for gospel. ... What we have to be careful about is clearly seperating what are known facts (who, what, when, where) from what is speculative. Mixing the two is in some ways like drinking and driving...and bound to get one into trouble. I'm not saying that you or anyone is doing that, but suggesting to be careful around some of the forum folk with the term "replacement copy" or "wearing copy." Some folks don't like the words. My own personal viewpoint is "yes" copies exist, but we have to be careful to differentiate the known from the known, facts from speculation, and clearly say when we are indulging in one or the other. Les Les

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                    #24
                    'Jeweler's Purchase' a better term?

                    Dan,

                    I am familiar with the Somme Oaks dig you mention and have the pics in my archives. Thanks

                    Les,

                    Thanks for cautions on the language and patience with a new forum member. I always hate walking into someone else's emotional minefield!

                    What would be the proper term for, say, Udet's or Goring's piece (pieces that we don't have to speculate on)? Jeweler's purchase? Private Purchase?

                    Also, I must have garbled my post war question in 'Murican instead of English. What do we KNOW were the date timeframes of the known post war jewler's UNMARKED (no W, FR or J.G.) Wagner / Friedlander, Godet (because I am assuming the marked 938s make them wartime?) and the marked Meybauer. Are these the accepted pre-1945 makers? Thanks for your patience, Steve

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by regular122
                      Dan,

                      Also, I must have garbled my post war question in 'Murican instead of English. What do we KNOW were the date timeframes of the known post war jewler's UNMARKED (no W, FR or J.G.) Wagner / Friedlander, Godet (because I am assuming the marked 938s make them wartime?) and the marked Meybauer. Are these the accepted pre-1945 makers? Thanks for your patience, Steve
                      Steve, There -are- known recipients who owned more than one. Some acquired them during the war, and others afterwards. Some folks consider that a PlM had to be made before 1918, to be "real." ... ... ... Others will accept known or documented medals made after 1918, but before 1945, as "copies" even if they were owned or worn by recipients. ... There is a very small number of known -offical- wartime makers. Wagner and Godet both had Royal permission to make and sell the awards. Some think Friedlaender made them, but as I've said previously, I don't think Friedlaender belongs on the list of those who actually made PlMs. Whether Hammerle or other firms actually made PlMs....there's no convincing documentation that's been provided at this time. ... The Meyhbauer PlMs that I've seen are one-sided versions that most likely were made between the wars as "pillow" or funerary medals. Meyhbauer during WWI was a relatively "minor" maker compared to some of the other larger firms, and between the wars "blossomed" into a much larger firm producing a wide range of Freikorps medals, and many newly made strikes of wartime medals. .... Wartime silver-gilt pieces if marked should have 938 on the cross. Some of the jump rings or "paperclips" on Wagner marked pieces sometimes have 800 stamped on the ring. (These may not be 'replacement" rings but actual wartime production in a harder grade of silver.) ... Previtera's book on the PlM mentions two Austrian recipients (the Emporer being one of them) who wore PlMs that were not made by any known German manufctuer. He speculates the pieces might have been made by Rothe, but he fails to consider that while Rothe is/war perhaps the best known Austrian medal maker, there were other firms in Vienna capable of making some very high quality medals. Current Rothe or post WWII medals are not in the usual list of recognized pre-1945 makers, primarily because the evidence for pre-45 manufacturer by that firm is contrversial and not accepted by most knowledgable collectors. ... What to call medals that were bought as a second medal? It doesn't really matter because names are irrelevant for the most part. As long as the piece was made before 1918, and the characteristics conform to known pieces, it's "wartime" and most collectors will not have a problem with accepting it as a wearing copy, replacement copy, or whatever. If it's post 1918, then terminology gets a bit stickier. There are known pieces made between the wars, however outside of Wagner, Godet, possibly Schickle, and the one-sided Meyhbauer pieces the list of known makers is still a short one. What those pieces look like....well, that's another matter for other threads. Les

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Good run down...

                        Thanks Les, that helps. I have a Meybauer and have been trying to research it thoroughly but have found very little. I guess I need to get Steve's book, which I have just learned about on this site. It is staggering the number of fakes I am learning about as I research. Given the rarity and price of these medals, it is small wonder. This site is fantastic and the knowledge of those in these threads is really a big help. Thanks to all, Steve

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