Pour le Merite "Hot Potato"

[Tim Tezer]

I kind of hate to step into this, but how else do you learn new things?

There is a Pour le Merite offered on Ebay at the following link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=13965&rd=1

Now, here is the thing - In several books, especially John Angolia's "Pour le Merite and Germany's First Aces" this type of PLM is illustrated as absolutely original. However, I have my doubts. First of all, these pieces use the same style of eagle as the post-WW2 copies by Rothe. Secondly, if you look closely at the center of the cross (most visibly on the reverse of the one on Ebay) you will see that the points of the cross arms don't line up perfectly with one another at the narrowest part. This is a characteristic that is common to this type, and is identical to the ones in Angolia's book. These types are often found marked "JG 938" which is supposedly Godet, but I have never seen any other WW1 or post-WW1 Godet pieces that use this mark. Usually, they marked items JGuS or GODET spelled out. I also have yet to see a period photo or positively confirmed period medal group that contains a PLM in this style.

Who made these crosses? When were they made? If they were made by Godet, why are they different than the Godet pieces that were made during the war? I know I am stirring up a hornet's nest with this, because a lot of people believe that this type is absolutely original and correct, but I have not been able to solve this mystery. Any thoughts?

Tim

[stogieman]

I think...

... this is just another variation on the Rothe piece. Frankly, no German, or Austrian jeweler for that matter, would make such a sloppy centered piece for the highest prussian Bravery award... think about it. If you had a Medal of Honor, would you buy a "wearer's copy" with the wreath mounted wrong? Also, note the one eagle facing the wrong way. A consistent error in pieces being passed off as "Post WW1 Wearer's Copies". In the last five years I've seen enough "wearer's copies" to outfit a regiment. Never mind the 72 actual winners....

[Bill Schwarz]

Eagle facing wrong direction

Every time I see one of these for sale, that is the first thing that I look for, the eagle facing the wrong direction.
This is what it should look like.
Bill S.

[Tim Tezer]

There are lots of them with the eagles facing the RIGHT direction, but they're still not correct. The one you posted a picture of is a typical awarded WW1 piece, but there were some variants. I gather from the responses to this post, that the one in the Ebay ad is NOT one of the legitimate variants. Does anyone know who made these copies, and when they were made? Perhaps the "JG" initials are actually the maker's real initials....

Jeff Goldblum?
Jennifer Garner?

[Brian S]

Hmmm, JG, isn't that the Jorge Gonzales example?

[Tim Tezer]

... or even Jackie Gleason. From Court Jester to Court Jeweler is a small step.

Well, Rick pretty much summed it up. Other than the two basic awarded types (the Wagner/Friedlander style as shown above and the Godet style as pictured in Andreas Schultze-Ising's site - www.medalnet.net, at the bottom of his page on the typology of the Pour le Merite), I have yet to find anyone with a shred of supporting evidence that any of these other types were actually used or even manufactured in the years during or immediately following the war. There are copies that closely resemble the Wagner/Friedlander type which have been seen with 800 silver marks, indicating that they were private purchase pieces, and they probably are legitimate. Still, there's a lot of contention on this point, and little in the way of solid evidence. Also, I have seen a copy marked by Gebruder Hemmerle of Munich that is obviously modeled after the Godet type, but with less attention to detail. It was offered by Der Rittmeister a couple of years ago, and since I have only seen one like it, it may very well have been a privately commissioned copy, perhaps made for an original recipient. But again, there is evidence to show that it wasn't made post-WW2.

By the way, the last time I checked, this copy on Ebay had met the reserve at $1,750.00. For that price, you could have your jeweler make you two or three copies in real gold that look more like the real thing.

Tim

[Brian S]

Right on Tim. Finally, a collector not trying to support 39 varieties to support a copy in his own collection!

Wagner and Godet...

That's IT folks.

Here's one of two types, anything else is...

[Tim Tezer]

Unfortunately, that leaves me in a sad state of affairs: I wouldn't want any PLM in my collection that I could afford to buy for my collection. Sort of like that line by Groucho Marx: "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have ME as a member!"

Tim

[Stephen Previtera]

Makers

Wagner and Godet...

That's IT folks.

Actually three makers. Wagner (W), Friedlander (FR) as official, and Godet (J.G.uS.) as a maker of special pieces and period wearer's copies. This has been my observation.
Stephen

[stogieman]

I try hard to.....

... stay out of the debates concerning PLM's & Flight Badges, but I have to agree with Stephn Previtera. Friedlander is noted as an official producer of the PLM, usually hallmarked FR. However, having said this, I know of very few crosses with that hallmark. As with many of the higher Prussian Bravery & Chivalric Orders, Wagner was the preferred jeweler for the official pieces. The GMVK, or "PLM-enlisted" cross had one official maker, Wagner. In the past year I have seen a number of new attempts to pass of crosses with suspension rings stamped GODET as "official" pieces, "wearer's copies", etc.
Also, the most fake PLM's I've seen bear the J.Gu.S. Maker mark.
The reality of this situation is that the demand for the items with "sex-appeal" far outstrip the actual supply of real items. I've held, but never been fortunate enough, to own a real PLM. I have however owned several of the GMVK's as well as 2 MEZ 1's (infinately rarer cross).
As long as people are willing to cling to a "pipe-dream" mentality regarding these items, fakes will abound.
Furthermore, the heated debates attempting to legitimize the "rightness" of an awful lot of really bad "wearer's copies", "variations", etc. may unfortunately take on an almost political feel. it's the old "if we tell the same lie long enough, and loud enough, the lie will become the new reality" theory!
The same holds true with the crown mark on flight badges.
My information from Germany, is that no flight badge that came direct from a recipient, or his family, bears the crown mark.
But the debate is so heated as to be down-right ugly! I have to laugh at these badges I see selling (just recently on a well known web site), bearing the crown mark, for HUGE dollars. I wonder who'll be sueing the bejesus out of who, when reality sets in! In the meantime, so much gets said, over and over, that "it might be", that today, people even manage to publish highly suppositional material, and it becomes "accepted reality"

To coin the phrase of a most famous French collector....

Not in my collection....

[Brian S]

OK Friedlander, but only if S.P. comes up with a family piece so marked. Those have been grossly reproduced. And we know families had to give up awards upon the death of a recipient prior to the end of WWII and EVEN AFTER WWII some of the recipients insisted their families give up their awards.

We're searching through papers for just such a set of papers written in the hand of an oakleaves holder asking that his awards be 'turned in'.

Hopefully, S.P. will find a war issued FR and document the piece for all of us who have never seen a genuine example.

You know this is a serious issue when Rick evokes the half moon comparison.

[Stephen Previtera]

Fr

Hello Brian And Rick,
In fact I do have a piece credited to a known PLM recipient, along with all his other awards. He was actually an Oak Leaf recipient as well. The piece is silver gilt and marked "FR" . That is the only mark on the piece.
The piece is not owned by me but will appear in my upcoming reference on the PLM, with the usual detail. I will not reveal the name as I do not have that permission from the owner, but in my book I will let you know exactly who the fellow is. (Not trying to pitch my project, this is proper protocal.) Rick is absolutely right, FR is the rarest maker and the toughest to find. W is the most common. Brian you are right, Godet is for some reason the most often faked. We need not even speak of "Rothe". I was not certain if Godet made period pieces as the characteristics of those I saw did not fit with photographic evidence, which almost always fits with W, FR. And I do not mean to mislead with my comment on "wearers' copy" But from photographs I was able to glean that men who could only have been awarded a, say 17-18 silver gilt with baroque ribbon eye, are most definitely wearing a "pie-slice" style similiar to pieces with Godet markings.
This could mean they may have purchased a separate piece to wear. I hope this helps.
Stephen

[Stephen Previtera]

Picture

I tried to attach a photo of the FR mark. How the heck do you do that? I thought I followed the instructions!!
Stephen

[Tim Tezer]

Steve, Brian, Rick, et al.,

Regarding the Godet pieces, with the pie-slice suspension style, I have seen contemporary photos of a recipient wearing one. Naturally, it is impossible to say if it was private purchase or actually awarded. The recipient in question is Max Immelman - study every photo you can find of him and you will see that in many of the photos he is clearly wearing a pie-slice suspension PLM.

It's interesting to note, however, that Oswald Boelke, who was given the award at the same time and in the same investiture ceremony as Immelman, is never seen wearing a pie-slice suspended piece in any of his photos. That supports the contention that Immelman may have purchased a wearing piece from Godet.

I don't believe that I have ever seen any photos of these famous recipients that were taken on the day of their investiture. That would make for an interesting study.

Tim

[Brian S]

On the day of investiture a not so famouse recipient, he is wearing the Wagner piece. Isn't it probable the aces would have been in the position of breaking the enamel of their PLM's causing them to buy a 'second' piece? Besides the flying, they were, I believe, a little bit more of the partying types, active horsemen, hunters and other activities where the enamel could get destroyed, very easily.