Tiger1's PLM

[Wild Card]

Hello All,

I am way down on the learning curve when it comes to PLM’s. The discussion regarding this piece raises a very basic question for me.

No laughing please. With regard to “issue” pieces only, I was under the impression that the pieces with the pie wedge suspensions were always gold and that the change to the baroque suspension took place before the change to gold plated pieces. Therefore, any issue piece with a pie wedge suspension would be gold. I understand that this would not necessarily apply to wearing copies.

Am i wrong on this?

Thank you in advance for your comments,

Wild Card

[gregM]

I am not 100% on this but I think the pie wedge was something
only found on Godet pieces and the other stlye was from Wagner,
Meybaurer made PLMs.

[regular122]

Wild Card,

Don't worry about dumb PlM questions. I ask them often.

The pie wedge was common to the Godet firm. Others used it too, namely some Austrian examples and some other official Imperial jewelers. Also pre-Godet era Imperial pieces had this design.

The baroque style could also be in gold however and was up until ealry 1916. Von Mackensen's 1914 Wagner piece is a great example. It is interesting to note that in the Jan 1916 photos of Max Immelman and Oswald Boelcke, that each had a different style. One Godet and one Wagner. Both are certain to have been gold pieces because of the date of the award. The baroque style could also be a cost-saving measure on gold content and from what I know was ordered as standard after Jan 1916 to conserve even further with the 938 content pieces. That did not apply to purchased pieces, only issue. Hence, both silver-gilt and gold pieces could surface up to 1918 with the pie wedge intact.

As you state, after the war, Godet and Meyabuer continued to make pieces with the wedge but in silver-gilt or bronze-gilt. Godet also made gold ones from what I understand. Others were vended, if not actually produced, by Hemmerle and Schickle with the wedge but were in silver-gilt. Post war examples can be found in both silver-gilt and bronze-gilt up to the 1945 period. Hope that helps some. Steve

[Brian S]

Certainly a quality looking piece. The ribbon does not look wartime. If a W then that's not a Wagner to be sure. Great looking, well made, I hope we find out what it is.

[Tiger 1]

..............I hope we find out what it is.

Me too.

Tony

[regular122]

Tony,

The more I look at this example, the more it puzzles me. It is of such a fine quality that it really defies the common fakes we have seen out there. If this example were unmarked, it would very likely pass many tests to be a private made jeweler's example - hand workmanship, great enamel, high quality materials.

Here is what is not consistent with good pre-, wartime or interwar PlMs:

- the 835 mark. All known legit PlMs of silver-gilt had a 935 or 938 marking. I have never seen an example with 835. Very puzzling.
- The 'W'. All wrong. Totally. Placement is consistent with Wagner's placement but this is nothing like a Wagner piece. If an 'M' then it has never been encountered before and looks just like some Wagner marks. The * is strange as well.
- The eagles, while Godet like, are not the same dimensions at all. Nowhere near it. Yet they are not like any other eagles that have surfaced on fakes or known pieces. More puzzling.
- The crown gap between the headband and top. While Godets have a common right side gap on the right edge, I have never seen a gap across the crown on any known example. Odd. Yet the crown in your example is hand-chased. Not common at all on any fake to see hand-chasing.
- The letter styles are a mix between Wagner and Godet. Most Godets are hand chased. Paul's Bronze-gilt is not, so there are examples of interwar PlMs that do not have it. But the letter styles are unlike any example or fake I have seen.

What does all that add up to? I don't know. Is this a jeweler's made piece that someone added marks to? Is it a fake that someone tried to add marks to but got them all wrong (which is very common)? I don't know. But if I were presented this piece to buy as a legitimate piece, I would have passed. If it were at a reasonable or great price, I would have snatched it up in a heartbeat because it displays very nicely. My two cents. Wish I could offer more. Steve

[Tiger 1]

Been thinking about this thread again.

I have learned that the * or stern-punze is a mark used to denote that a substitute metal was used. In this case apparently 835 silver-gilt for the original gold.

Now another train of thought...............

What if the W is correct and is NOT for Wagner as we assume it to be? I'm not completely rulling out that the mark may have been added at some point post production, but what if is was not?

Anyone with a list of Imperial era jewelers that had a W in their name or used it as a mark?

The joys of collecting!

Tony

[Biro]

...Anyone with a list of Imperial era jewelers that had a W in their name or used it as a mark?...Tony

Hi Tony

Here's an interesting site you may already be aware of...
http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks.html

Sadly, nothing even remotely depicting a 'W' in the VERY basic form used by Wagner and in fact it dosen't even mention Godet, Wagner or most of the imperial names and marks we here are familiar with... but there's a hell of a lot who we have never come across, so it's worth bookmarking.

Off the top of my head - apart from Wagner - I can only think of Wellner and Werner whose marks we already know and can rule out.

I would have thought personally, that a legitimate imperial prussian jeweller with a W starting surname would have had a difficult time using the type of 'W' mark seen on your PLM due to it's EXTREME resemblance to Wagners own mark - which in most cases was simply etched or scratched into the PLM base much like your own.

As I told you privately, if it wasn't for the quality and - in particular - the design of your piece, I would quickly have ruled it out as simply a new fake. I'm still not convinced it is real mind you but I hope we can do everything in our power to assist you discover just what exactly you have there! It is, after all, in the greater interests of the imperial collectors here as well as yourself.

Possibly Austrian made? - I don't know. One thing it is not, is a genuine award piece from the 1914-1918 period. But then, you already know that!

The joys of collecting indeed!

All the best my friend

Marshall

[Biro]

Tony

Just an update - Tegunn has just posted another example VERY similar to yours Opinions on this Pour Le Merite also marked 'W' 835 but with a baroque style suspension.

It's not a Wagner either and there are slight differences - but also VERY many similarities that can not be coincidence... particularly when comparing the eagles wings and veins - and the 'eyeball' on the top left eagles.

The two of you should compare notes..

Marshall

[TPK]

Good evening all, just bringing this thread back to life as I have a piece very similar to this one from an older collection, it has the pie wedge and star point marking on top. Will have my PLM at the Union N.J. show this Saturday, 7 November. If any members from the area can meet me there we can photogragh it and compare to the one in the original thread. I would like opinions as Imperial medals are not my strong point. Look forward to seeing you at the show. TPK

[Tiger 1]

Good to see this thread resurrected from the way back.
Maybe some new info has been uncovered or perhaps some new theories emerged.
I still have it.
What I should do is bring it to the SOS in the spring of '16 for anyone interested in seeing it 'in hand'.
All the best.
Tony

[TPK]

Hi, went to a small local show in NJ and had the PLM with me and some members had a look and we think its along the same conclusions, post 1918 produced, not sure that the W is for Wagner but possible some other maker, not a Spanish or Rothe piece. So..... IDK. I plan on going to the SOS this year myself as I have missed alot due to deployments overseas the last couple of shows. Was at the MAX but didnt find this older thread till after. Would love to meet and get some more comparison pictures to maybe figure this out if we can. So right now there are 3 like this one so the idea that these were made in smaller batches could also be true of this maker. Look forward to discussing more and meeting so members and some Imperial experts can get a hands on.TPK

[Tiger 1]

If things stay the same as the last few years after the 'great' reconfigure at the SOS I should be at table U - 25. Pretty much in the center of the four columns.
If you can, come on down. It would be great to meet for some PLM show and tell.
All the best.
Tony

[TPK]

Hi I am still planning on attending the SOS this year and will bring my PLM for some comparison and photos. Look forward to seeing you at the show. TPK

[Tiger 1]

Sounds like a plan.
See you there!
Tony