A Study of the Godet Style PlM

[Ludwig]

What an excellent thread! Very informative! I wish I had your energy!

[Brian S]

Please refer to Previtera's great book on page 364. I do not see a match. The '8' on this specimen is quite distinct. Although one would immediately think "they must have had many many stamps lying around", this does not match what we know to be true. It's my opinion that when the items left a certain stage of the finish, they were graded as "OK" and stamped for release. If anyone can show any other good Godets with markings other than what is shown on the above reference, I'd like to see them.

Thank you for the photo.

The question at hand is the PlM from Wulff with the MM shown. Thanks Les, Ludwig, you have the energy, dive in.

[regular122]

....The numbers might look alike to some, but these don't appear to have been made from the "same" dies. If better photos are available in the future, would it be possible to see the color of the markings and rim as they appear to the eye. I'd like see how much of the original finish is present, if gilding was applied, and what it any traces remain.

I hope to get some Les. It may be some weeks but I am confident I can. What strikes me is that even without the Wulff mark pic, the marks presented and also those printed by Stephen in Prussian Blue show that the Godet marks can very in several ways. Interesting observations you posted on the dies of the marks. I find the whole thing fascinating to say the least. Hopefully, we will have some rim mark pics of both Wulff crosses soon. Steve

[Zepenthusiast]

Question to ponder: why hollow construction again? It made sense in the days of the gold pieces, conserving the precious metal, but it would seem likely the cost of the labor to assemble small numbers of hollow crosses would go well beyond the price of the silver needed to make a solid version (a la the typical late-war Godet.)

[VtwinVince]

Good question, Jim. I have a pre-war Prussian Crown Order 2nd Class in gold by Wagner, and it's hollow. I have a late-war 2nd Class by the same maker, and it's silver-gilt with solid construction.

[Zepenthusiast]

Any known post-war manufacture, VV? (Note that created a Wagner-esque "W"--cool!) Would suppose less likelihood as so closely associated to the Prussian kingdom, more so perhaps than the PlM, but would be interesting to know how made if they did.

[Brian S]

Jim, seriously, there is no VV, no M1 manufacturer of PlMs.

If you look long and hard enough under extreme magnification I'm sure you could find the book of Job word for word in the scratches on almost any award.

[Zepenthusiast]

You've been reading too many of my conspiracy theories, Brian. The "VV" here was meant to be a reference to VtwinVince's initials (note: "V V") and a play on Wagner's use of a twin V to mark some of their hollow gold crosses, as seen in Prussian Blue. No "M1" to worry about on Wulff's cross! (Perhaps we need MI5?)

[Zepenthusiast]

VtwinVince--can you tell if the hollow gold Prussian Crown order and the solid silver one were struck from the same die? One of the questions unanswered about PlMs is whether it was possible to use the same "outer faces" (the visible obverse and reverse, as opposed to the unseen inner faces) to make a solid cross, or whether the nature of the dies for the hollow versions couldn't be adapted. None of the Wagner nor Godet wartime PlMs I've reviewed photographically suggest either made a successful attempt to adapt the old dies, instead making entirely new versions. Arguably, that is why the straight-tail feathered "Schickle" type crosses under current discussion required entirely new dies as well (to produce a hollow cross again, that is.)

[VtwinVince]

Hi Jim,

The example with swords is currently undergoing some restoration at the jeweler's, but I should have it in hand next weekend, and will have a close look for comparison purposes. On another note, has anyone seen the PLM grouping which has come up on the emedals website, with an example attributed to Godet?

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi VtwinVince--do let us know what you see, comparing the two, when you have the other back.

Do you refer to the Taeschner grouping?

[Biro]

...has anyone seen the PLM grouping which has come up on the emedals website, with an example attributed to Godet?...

Yes - an interesting example with none of the crown and letter chasing we are used to seeing on an otherwise textbook wartime example.

An example of yet another Godet production anomalie well worth noting.

Also worth noting is that the grouping is sold as 'complete' and with 'original award document' from 22/01/1918.

The implication therefore is the Godet PLM was the award piece?

[Brian S]

Gorgeous, and to my eye, no problems. Interesting it's not chased but I would think not a requirement.

Any photos of Tescher with a Wagner?

A drawing and a photo there of Tescher that would be interesting to see what PlM he is wearing.

[Zepenthusiast]

Just a note--per the documents, the recipient's surname was Taeschner. The description of the group contains what appears to be typo, dropping the "n."

[Brian S]

...and now you got me wondering why I could find nothing.

It's Tescher, Otto, Recipient 5063.

Again, no photos of Tescher with a Wagner? What's in those photos on the site?