Salty Cased Zeppelin

[regular122]

Juencker Zep badge 1b

Second pic of four on the first badge

[regular122]

Juencker Zep badge 1c

Third of four of first badge

[regular122]

Juencker Zep badge 1d

Last pic of first badge

[regular122]

Zeppelin Badge #2

Pic of second badge and last of the pics Ferg sent. Steve

[regular122]

Comparison

Here is a side by side comparison of Ferg's and John's badges. Steve

[J. McCabe Bell]

I love the vaulting. Seems like a textbook example of a 1919/early 20s piece.

[Ferg 1]

Luftschiffer badges

Here are some details on the two Juncker badges shown. One is vaulted the other is flat,my gut feeling is that the flat one is the earlier of the two ( the open area's on the flat example are sawn and hand chased with a fine file as opposed to the vaulted one which is pierced out by jig saw, or the like) The pins are struck and shear-cut and vary in length.I have also seen this exact type of pin on the Danzig cross of that period,I have a marine pilot badge with one of the same also. They both weigh around 33.6 gramms. Both are silvered bronze and die struck.The flat example has a reasonable amount of frosting lacquer still present although it has patinated to a yellowish hue and darker in the deeper recesses.The highlights of this badge have worn through to the base metal.The vaulted piece has hardly any lacquer left .The reverse of this badge shows pleasing signs of wear ,even on the reverse side of the pin it has slight marks where the two uniform loops have shined the silver plate. The profile of the two badges as indeed the sizes are exactly the same ,however the registration of the cutting out of the two vary eliminating any doubt of them being cast.There is also slight double shadowing of the lower wreath in different degrees on both badges caused by minute movement or wear in the die plattens as it strikes at full pressure ( a common fault seen in coin production) . Hope this is interesting guys, Ferg1

[epsomgreen]

At the risk of infuriating everyone, I can't say I like the looks of any of the badges pictured in this discussion. With respect to John's badge, I concur with the critique articulated by Jeff VanHofwegen. Juncker is acknowledged to be the preeminent manufacturer of commemorative and qualification Abzeichen, yet this badge is crude, and, by mutual agreement, "ugly."

Why?

Forget, if you will, everything about the case, etc., etc. Can anyone seriously believe Juncker would permit something so impoverished to leave their Werk as a finished product? These badges were private purchase items manufactured in the 1920s. Simply because they are postwar is no excuse for them to be substandard.

Furthermore, because something has been fitted to a box is no guarantee of the integrity of the individual elements. Cases are far easier to fake and distress than a badge.

In my opinion, John's badge has "casting" written all over it. No amount of natural wear, abrasion, or dampness can account for those undersized and irregular holes in the ribbon bow (pretzel, for lack of precise nomenclature) pictured in post #23. Furthermore, examine the center ribbon where it binds the oak leaves in post #24. There appears to be significant wear at this point, but why isn't the brass (if it is brass) alloy showing? The same is true of the ribbon to the right of center. The highest relief is the Zeppelin itself. Why doesn't it display such exaggerated wear? I would venture it's not wear at all, and typical, instead, of casting anomalies. Additonal evidence of casting is present where the Zeppelin's nose and stabilizer bisect the inner top laurels. There appears to be casting sprue at both points.

For comparison, I offer my Walter Schot fec. Marine Luftschiffer badge. This badge was purchased at the 2005 MAX and examined afterwards by Stephen Previtera and Andreas Ising, who both pronounced it good. The badge is either brass or Tombak alloy with a silver wash. Also note the badge is not a monolithic strike. The Kaiserkrone is a separate piece neatly soldered to the bow (this makes perfect sense as the badge could then be finished as either Armee or Marine).











I believe the intergrity of this badge speaks for itself.

Best wishes,

Charles

[J. McCabe Bell]

Odds are this badge is a copy as are most Zeps out there. But no one has made a convincing case to me, or shown another 20s/30s CEJ for comparison. I do respect, however, everyone's gut feelings based on experience. Jacques has seen a lot of these hallmarks and will LMK shortly if he has ever seen CEJ raised. I think that's about as definitive a smoking gun as I'll get.

Charles, the front of this badge is not appreciably cruder to the typical customer then than any other I've seen. The back is ugly and showing brass because it was in contact with damp flocking. Any faker can buff the front on a wheel if you want to see brass on the high points. The box is warped which suggests it has been exposed to pressure and changes in temperature and humidity. Finally, on quality, some of the best quality flying badges I have seen--imperial and nazi--were made in the last five years.

With respect to your badge, Stephen Previtera is not an expert--he is a researcher and writer--though I listen carefully to anything Andreas says. But I would not buy a U-Boat badge with that Schot mark!

Remaining questions I have, some unanswered questions from previous posts:

1. Were Juncker badges ever cast in the 1930s or 40s?
2. Were catchplates only used on 100% zinc badges? or also on other non-ferrous metals?
3. What was the period for the incused "CEJ"

Thanks and Rgds

[Brian S]

Never seen a raised CEJ, never seen a catch plate on a badge like this.

These zep discussions really raise a lot of tempers but the facts are they are rare and you won't see them worn to any great extent in the Reich photos so the reasons to produce them in the forties was pretty much non-existent. I'm sure you'll find a Reich photo of someone wearing one but in no real numbers. These are for the most part post WWI and WWII fakes and so highly faked they are avoided.

As for the Walter Schot I have not seen this Zep badge before but the trademark is entirely different from their wartime sub badge.

[epsomgreen]

Charles, the front of this badge is not appreciably cruder to the typical customer then than any other I've seen.

Hello John:

Where to begin? Is this not true of most fake badges? The devil is in the details. The side all forgers tend to overlook is the reverse, and this is what caught my attention first. Call me daft, but I feel the back of any legitimate die-struck badge should be flat and regular. However, since I haven't personally examined your badge, can you set me straight regarding those specific concerns I raised, the perceived casting flaws?

Like you, I'm partial to my badge. Yes, the Schot Stempel is different in form to that of a sub badge, but then it's not a U-Bootkriegsabzeichen, is it? The hallmark is well defined, the letter spacing even, the letter size consistent. Additionally, you won't find bubbles, pitting, or battery acid patina camouflaging anything either. The hinge, pin, clasp, and soldering are certainly of a higher quality than the "Juncker" competitiors.

I can appreciate (when it comes to contentious matters) legitimacy exists largely in the eye of the beholder, and I would be naive to expect my badge to be endorsed more readily than the examples on display here. However, I don't feel compelled to press the issue. As long as you're pleased with your badge, what else matters? Sorry, but I can't answer your questions.

Charles

[J. McCabe Bell]

You folks won't take yes for an answer. I've already conceded that odds are mine is a fake, but I want to understand why, not cave in to consensus. Can't answer your questions about casting sprues, Charles, we would have to examine it togther for me to see your point.

Here's another unusual one-off Zep. Also fake?

http://derrittmeister.com/productpages/11429.htm

Brian, I hoped that if my "CEJ" were a late piece it would explain some of its oddities, and I was using it to display with my Linnarz pieces. His Zep badge was left behind on a flea market table in Germany because the purchaser of the medals ran out of money!

[Brian S]

Looks like a very nice commemorative medal being worn. Unofficial I'd guess but nice nonetheless.

[polux]

Zep

Good evening to all,

Very interesting article. I spoke about this article to a friend collector. He possesses in the collection a badge with the marking according to : see image. He wishes to know your opinion. Beforehand thank you.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[Ferg 1]

Hi Polux, can we see the rest of the badge?
Ferg1.