Salty Cased Zeppelin

[Brian S]

I made another effort to photograph the Schot hallmark, and doubt I will be able to improve upon the result. The original silver wash appears to survive intact in some of the recesses.



Charles

I hardly think it's apples and oranges to compare badges by the same manufacturer. Not sure why you would come to that conclusion. Perhaps I dabble too much in Reich awards where badges made by a single manufacturer certainly show terrific similarities. And, not zep badges, but several enamaled medals in my possession by the same maker show the same mark on the various medals. To continue, and now I feel the boor, the oak leaf on the RAO and PlM are exactly the same made by Wagner.

But to your Schot zep badge, it has everything I'd expect in a badge made in the late twenties or thirties in that hinge construction. You can also see the finishing on the metal that matches the sub badge.

I'm extremely skeptical on these but the Schot is the most convincing of the badges to my eyes.

[epsomgreen]

I hardly think it's apples and oranges to compare badges by the same manufacturer.

Hi Brian:

It's certainly relevant, but one would almost have to begin with a survey of Schot wartime vs. postwar U-Boot badges to establish whether appreciable differences in dies and construction exist. Subsequently, whether these characterisitcs could be extrapolated to Schot Zeppelin badges is bound to be problematic. If this same hallmark appeared on a badge of any kind with incontrovertible provenance, the mystery would be solved. However, that dark horse may never come to light.

Though the hallmark may be a real Achilles heel, there is nothing about the badge that screams ignorant forgery. Even if the badge were a dud, I would expect to see more of them.

I value your input and your comments regarding the badge.

Regards,

Charles

[Tim Tezer]

Well, I'm getting old, and I don't fit into my Cranky-Pants anymore. So I'm not that eager to get into the fray over Walter Schot badges, especially as I have to admit that comparing U-boat badges to zeppelin badges is flawed science. Instead, I'll just say that very similar Walter Schot maker marks appear on U-boat badges that I believe are fake, and that belief concurs with a certain German dealer who provides access to his gallery of what he has identified as fakes - for a fee. (Fortunately, I've downloaded most of his Fakes-of-the-Week and saved them for posterity.) But his opinions have been pooh-poohed, as have my own. C'est la guerre.

I could not find a photo of a Walter Schot marked zeppelin badge that had a maker mark that MATCHED the original U-boat badges. So I'm drawing a blank as to what they're supposed to look like.

In Nimmergut's book, he describes a variety of materials and makers that seems unusually varied for such a scarce badge. He gives no award numbers for the Army badge, but says 600 for the Navy badge. Two of the three photos he includes (1 Army and 1 Navy badge) are of unmarked badges with the same pin and fluted catch of John's Glaser badge. (another for the Glaser). The other is an unmarked Navy example with the distinctive Meybauer-style pin. He also lists Juncker, Walter Schott, Werner & Sohne, Preissler of Pforzheim, Luppe & Heilbronner (who?), and Wagner as makers of the Navy badge. He doesn't identify Glaser by name. And most interestingly, he gives the markings on the Walter Schott badges as "Fec. Walter Schott" which is different from the "Walter Schott Fec." we're used to seeing on U-boat badges. But Nimmergut opened the door for huge criticism of his overpriced 4-volume book by including items that had no provenance, many of which are widely regarded as outright fakes. So there goes his legacy. If he was going to open himself up for that kind of abuse, he might as well have got into politics.

Confused? You betcha. Conclusions? Not a one. Comfort level with buying zeppelin badges? Zero. Comfort level with SELLING zeppelin badges? Don't spend the money just yet.

The bottom line is that someone - probably in Germany - needs to go to museums and families and private collections and single out the badges that have rock-solid provenance dating back to at least 1945, and then make up a typography from that. Since I haven't got my BDOS yearbook yet, I couldn't say whether anyone has done that.

Tim

[J. McCabe Bell]

Re: "Rock solid provenance"...Andreas on the Linnarz group and events of only a few months ago...

This [medal] group...surfaced in Berlin at a antik reseller. Unfortunately a silver cigar chest some more badges were not bought by this guy due to monetary restrains. These pieces were then unfortunatelly sold somewhere else. what a shame. Yet, we are all lucky, that this did not completely vanish.



SOMEONE OUT THERE BOUGHT MY--I MEAN LINNARZ'S--ZEPPELIN BADGE...DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!!!

YOU'LL KNOW YOU HAVE THE BADGE IF YOU HAVE THE MINI ZEPPELIN COMMEMORATIVE MEDAL, TOO. (I GOT THE RACK, EK1, AND OBSERVER BADGE.)





IDENTIFY YOURSELF...72 RHINE MAIDENS AWAIT YOU IN VALHALLA...AND A FABULOUS REWARD AT ANY RESORT YOU CHOOSE IN THE CARIBBEAN...




"Okay, who nickt my Zeppelin Abzeichen...I feel nackt without it!" Hptmn Linnarz (in center, in leathers).


Linnarz's Fliegerbeobachterabzeichen (worn in the photo on his leather jacket).

[epsomgreen]

YOU'LL KNOW YOU HAVE THE BADGE IF YOU HAVE THE MINI ZEPPELIN COMMEMORATIVE MEDAL, TOO.

Hi John:

I may have laughed when I read your mock? anger, but I certainly share your pain. It seems unconscionable that something so important should be scattered to the winds. The real tragedy is the present owners will probably never read your words or know they own just a part of something really historic.

Tim, thank you for pitching in. I suppose being left in collector limbo is not as horrible as learning the absolute worst. So much for being cocky about a badge that is no longer a slam dunk.

Chas.

[polux]

Zep

Hello to all,

Thank you for all your comments. According to my friend Richard, the badge was bought in France in 1995. To be someone of the authenticity of this badge, my friend deposited this badge beside the federal control of the precious metals in Switzerland (my friend Richard lives in Switzerland). It will have a result of this control at the end of week. We shall be so fixed to the silver content of its badge. If the silver content is confirmed, I think that the badge will be able to be recognized as authentic. Should the opposite occur, it will mean that my friend made a bad deal. Result on Thursday or Friday.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[J. McCabe Bell]

Good luck, Polux, I would love a few real badges to emerge from this thread! I will also get the Glaser badge in the next few days and post pictures.
Rgds
John

[polux]

Zep

Hello to all,

My friend Richard passed on me the results of the expertise of his badge.

You will find an image of this expertise below. At first the information on the administration which made this control.

Département fédéral des finances = Federal department of the finances
Administration fédérale des douanes = Federal administration of the customs
Contrôle des métaux précieux = Control precious metals

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[polux]

Zep

Hello,

The suite of this expertise: part with information on the composition of the metals.

Crown: copper-colloured and silvery brass
Motives sheets and Zeppelin: money 900
Hairpin common metal: alpacca (miscellany copper zinc and nickel)

You will notice that the crown (consisted of copper-colloured and silvery brass) was added to the silver badge 900.

Considering this expertise, my friend Richard wishes to know your reactions.

From his part, reinforced by the expertise, he estimates that this badge is well an original badge.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[polux]

Zep

Hello,

You will find enclosed an image of the Richard's badge with the various measurements of this badge.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[J. McCabe Bell]

I'm not the expert here, but I kind of like the idea of a base metal crown optionally attached to a core 900 silver army/navy badge. It smacks of corporate corner cutting in a bad economy.

It would be swell to end up this Marquis of Queensbury thread with two real badges!

My Glaser & Sohn has returned...

[J. McCabe Bell]

The logo as best I could get it.

[J. McCabe Bell]

[J. McCabe Bell]

Here's a nice touch. The end of the pin is finished off.











Okay, peers...your peerless reviews are appreciated.
Rgds
John

[regular122]

A beautiful Glaser. Congrats! Would that we could all find one like it. Steve