1813 EK I = 18.000 Euro

[Tiger 1]

Eric,

There are other references besides 'The Iron Time'. Bowen, Geissler, the Deutsches Ordensmuseum Ludenscheid and Heyde are four others. I don't recall a vaulted 1813 EKI in any of these references.

Tony

[gregM]

Is it just my computor or are the pictures of his stuff not very good. They look kind of pixeled out. I can't make any real comments concerning details or paint ect cause of the poor picture quality.

[Peter R.]

Yes indeed, I wouldn't buy a 1939 EKII based on those let alone fork over 18K Euros.

I imagine that you might be able to request/buy a printed version of the catalogue prior to auction though, and that should have much better photos in it. Or ask them to supply some higher resolution photos.

The big question I have is 'how can anybody prove to any reasonable extent, let alone absolutely, that this trinket came with this sheet of paper?'

The catalogue does state clearly that any interested parties should contact the publisher for more detailed information about this pairing regarding provenance and originality. So if anybody here is truly interested and has the readies to buy it rather than longing for it, there's hopefully much more info available.

[Biro]

...I don't recall that vaulting of the Iron Cross was that early of a feature. I may be wrong here and am interested in any other known examples....Tony

Hi Tony!

The Iron cored 1813 EK1's pictured in Heyde's book (my bible) are all described as gew******246;lbte (curved) form!!

Marshall

[Tim Tezer]

All good questions, Tony, and if I were seriously in the money to bid on this, I would want to raise any and all questions before bidding. (I'm not... )

I've got the catalog in front of me (the print catalog has nice clear photos. Greg is correct that the online PDFs look pixelated, but that's just a feature of PDF files. If you put the photos in there at high resolution, it would take hours for anyone with a dial-up connection to download the suckers). I've also got probably the most essential reference source: Friedhelm Heyde's catalog of the Max Aurich collection, "Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1870-1914". There are six 1813 EK1's in that reference collection, of which one has had the center replaced with velvet, one is a private purchase example that is quite different from the issue pieces, and one is a reduction size and therefore private purchase by definition. Of the three full size pieces with iron cores, ALL THREE are vaulted. Two of these three are the type with 8 loops on the back, and one is the pinback variation.

The catalog references Heyde's book, giving the illustration number with the enlarged photos of the pinback variant from the Max Aurich collection. There are, however, some slight differences: The Aurich collection example has rounded ends to the hinge, while the von Strantz example in Thies' catalog has angled edges to the hinge. Also, the top of the pin on the von Strantz example has a distinct square shape to it, and is soldered to the hinge at the top. The Aurich example has a pin that curves sharply downward and is soldered to the bottom of the pin. These differences could simply be attributed to the fact that these are hand-made pieces, and there may be variations from one to another. Although there are very few of these in existence, nobody has said categorically that they are all made by the same hand.

The center of the von Strantz example does look a little lumpy, but it's impossible to tell from a photo if it has been repainted. I don't think Andreas would have missed this point on an 18.000 euro item, however, so I would expect that it has not been repainted.

All that said, it comes down to whether you believe the provenance. My gut feeling, based on the photo, is that it is perfectly good. The document is so bloody rare that you would have to think that anyone who has preserved it this long would not have any trouble preserving the cross along with it.

My question is: will anybody cough up the 18,000 euros (about $26,000 with the commission and exchange in dollars) to own it. In the auction business, only the fall of the hammer will tell.

Tim

[Tiger 1]

Marshall and Tim,

You both are correct. I misspoke about Heyde's EKs. I should have not relied on my memory. I don't think I'm getting that old yet....but....what was the question again?......you guys straightened me out here. Thanks. My excuse is that I have deer hunting on my mind and I'm leaving for the woods in about a hour.

I can agree with the points you made here from an optimistic view. But with the cost of this rare item being what it is I believe a cautious pessimistic view may also be in order.

We agree that the document is THE major item of this grouping. While the EKI seems fine I still wonder if it is 188 years old as the document. After all the urkunde is what designates that the holder is entitled to pocess and wear the award. We know that recipients of the later 1870 EKs did on ocassion replace their original or misplaced awards with new ones during the 25th anniversary Jubilee. We have to at least consider this possibility with this group.

Other than that I would love to have this group if I lived the 'money is no object' life.

Tony

[Daniel Murphy]

I very much doubt that this cross was made in 1817. Since the original 2nd classes without the stepped core are said to be 1830-1850 pieces awarded to those on the regimental inheritance lists, I believe this is a later made piece from that period as well. This does not mean it did not belong to the same officer as the document, it just means the cross was made later. Since the original 1813 EK 1's are sew-on pieces, an officer (with multiple uniforms) would have had to purchase one for every uniform. It would be easier to find a way to buy one and use it for all uniforms. This would have been the one he wore everyday.
Dan Murph7y

[frankandfrank]

ek 1813

i remember that a EK 1 from 1813 was sold 10 years agoin german auctions house with engraving for 5000 DM. A very fine piece! Just looking if i can find the auctions catalogue!ralf

[gregM]

With all of this talk about the cross being early or late, fake or real, Has anyone thought to ask the same questions about the document? If the high price of this grouping is do to the document wouldn't it make sence to know if the paperwork was authentic? I would think that it would be easy to produce fake documents. I am not talking about running one off with your dot-matrix printer but anyone with access to a printing shop would be able to produce one.---------I am not suggesting anything about this group. I personaly think the document is probably good and that the EK is a late replacement piece. Closer to 1870 tan 1813.
But that's just my gut feeling.

[Peter R.]

Wel, somebody with access to the same kind of antique print equipment and inks that were used back in the day, and knows how to use it properly, anyway. No modern printshop would be able to fake even a 1940's printed document convincingly (to somebody used to looking closely at print, that is). Pretty well everything mechanical used in the process has changed since then - in fact it's harder than people think to make something that looks convincingly like it was done in the 80's, pre-digital age.

And they would have to have a few (one for the final item and a few to get the press running right) suitable pieces of original period paper to use, because aging paper is another tough one. All the most successful paper matter forgeries used period paper, as far as I am aware.

To some extent I imagine it can be harder to fake paper items than something like a handmade piece of jewellery - especially and particularly if the paper item was one of a bunch printed at the same time in the 1800's, it would give a much more exacting and detailed opportunity for comparison between a known original and the repro item, whereas any amount of differences between the jewellery/awards could for better or for worse be put down to 'hand made' differences.

YMMV,

Peter

[Tim Tezer]

I don't think anyone could tell for certain if the document was authentic without examining it very closely at first hand. It takes a lot of experience to be able to tell old paper from new, and tell if the ink was applied later to old paper, etc. But if I were buying in this price range, I wouldn't hesitate to go look at it myself. That's what airplanes are for.

Since the original 2nd classes without the stepped core are said to be 1830-1850 pieces awarded to those on the regimental inheritance lists, I believe this is a later made piece from that period as well.

The stepped core only applies to the 2nd class, as far as I know. I don't believe any issued 1st classes ever had stepped cores.

Tim