1813 EK I = 18.000 Euro

[frankandfrank]

In a german auctions house will sell in December a Iron Cross 1813 (EK I) first class with original document for 18.000 Euros! Fine piece, but a very high price! The document was signed in 1817!

[gregM]

That does seem a little bit pricey BUT when was the last time that you saw a original 1813 EK1 go up for sale.

A 1939 RK goes for around $8000-$15000 and there were some 8000 awarded.------------------There were only 638 offically awarded 1813 EK1s.

[Erich B.]

I would think the document should be worth at least as much as the cross--how many of those are around?
Not many!!
Erich

[VtwinVince]

I have only ever seen one 1813 EK document, and that was for a second class.

[Daniel Murphy]

The chance that a 1813 Issue EK 1 had survived (in any condition) and still be accompanied by it's original award document (in any condition) over the past 190 years is a one in a million chance. I know they didn't make that many but that is the point. This is a one of a kind. Show me another one. It had to have been lovingly cared for, very carefully by the last ten generations. And then had to escape fires, floods, mishandling (even accidental) by someone who maybe could care less. And then for both pieces not to have been separated between brothers or whatever.
Knights crosses, they issued 7300 and they have only had to survive 60 years. There are thousands of them still in existence and sell for up to $15,000.00. Blue Max's, less than 700 awarded, 90 years old, but any number of collectors are fortunate enough to have one. (Yea, me too.)They sell for around $14,000.00.
So what, you say they are Germanys top medals. and this is just a EK 1. Yea like the holy grail is just a cup! Like Mt. rushmore is just a stone! Like the Declaration of Indepence is just a piece of paper! I could go on, but I will spare you.
Dan Murphy

[Peter R.]

Hmm yes, I'd agree that this doesn't look that expensive for what it is (if the document is indeed original to the cross) - and much as I'd love to own one, I'd say RK's are by comparison overpriced.

[frankandfrank]

ek

In my collection there is a íron cross (EK 2) document from September 1813!

One of the first iron cross documents worldwide!

From a young officier who was fighting from 1812(!) until 1815!

regards
ralf

[Tim Tezer]

In addition to the rarity of both the cross itself and the document, there are two other factors that contribute to this hefty price estimate: 1) The cross is a pinback, which is unusual for 1813 EK1's, and makes it one of a very few known of that type; 2) The fact that the cross is accompanied by the document gives it an attribution and - more importantly - a provenance. The 1813 Ek1 is so heavily reproduced that finding one with any kind of documentation attesting to its history and authenticity is especially important. If it sells at that price, it will probably be a record for an 1813 EK1, but in this case it's not just rare - it's probably one of a kind.

Tim

[Douglas Jr.]

Hi

Any links to check this one? I´m really interested to see this document, as I never saw one before (only a second class - which is by itself a rarity)

Thanks,

Douglas.

[Eagle]

U find it at www.andreas-thies.de

New auction, Catalouge is online.

Eagle

[frankandfrank]

Iron Cross - EK I

PDF Katalog-Seiten
Allgemeiner Teil
Eisernes Kreuz 1813 - 1945
Orden und Ehrenzeichen - Russland
Seiten 265 - 280 Abb. 500 - 514 (3,70 MB)

Its the number No 505!!

This document is signed in 1817! After the war!

[Tiger 1]

I will be the 'devil's advocate' here for the sake of furthering thoughtful discussion. I believe we should consider what is being offered for at least 18,000 Euros with a critical eye. But lets for the sake of this discussion keep the asking cost of no consequence at this time. In other words let's forget the $$$$$ for now.

At first look the group is something that makes an dedicated Iron Cross collector start to sweat. If you are alive and seriously collect EKs then you know the feeling. I was doing some very quick math of my net worth and what damage I may do to my well being and homelife if I seriously considered a run at this EK. Needless to say that I cannot persue this without serious consequence so I'll have to settle for the knowledge we can share here.

Okay, Down to the details! Remember this is the 'devil' speaking and the 'devil' is in the details!

The more I looked at this set the more I started to notice some things about this EK that raised more questions than it ansered.

It's very interesting that the cross shown is not only a pinback example but a vaulted one at that. I was under the impression that the manufacture of the EK during the early years was a fairly difficult thing to do. The three piece construction and such not to mention the hinge, pin and ctch assembly. I don't recall that vaulting of the Iron Cross was that early of a feature. I may be wrong here and am interested in any other known examples.

I am more than a bit curious about this as both the hinge block and the vaulting are very much a later features. Both of these features suggest a cross made during the latter part of the Imperial era. Early 20th century perhaps. The core looks to have been painted in one of the oblique views. Is that correct or am I seeing something not there? The catch has been repaired/replaced?

Also how strong is the provenance that both that document and that EKI have been together for the past 188 years?

I am not casting any despertions here but I am very interested in what others may see here when we get past the 'WOW' factor. I am very, very curious.

Respectfully,

Tony

[Eric Gaumann]

Good points, Tony. Especially about the vaulting as Previtara doesn't mention it at all (I think).

http://www.andreas-thies.de/pdf_28_05/28Auktion_S265_280.pdf

The hinge, pin and catch look like they might be from the 1813 era. Then again manufacturing methods back then were so primitive that fakers from the recent era can use the same procedure and it almost plays into their hands to reproduce such simply manufactured material.
Plus, the low quality of the pix at the Theis site make most observations little better than edjucated guesses.
Still and all a very interesting thread.

RE: Theis' cataloge....I very much like 1813EKII #507; what a beauty! *But* they list #509 as a "1. Klasse" while it has a very obvious ring and loop. I can't read the German description of the piece but such a mistake is almost manion-like.

[gregM]

The whole problem with a 1813 ek1 is that they are so rare that none of us can pull one out to compare to. Even if I had $18K setting around, I would still want a half dozen from some very knowedgable people.

[Tiger 1]

Greg,

You are correct to a degree. Original 1813 EKIs are rare. But....We do have a very good population of 1813EKIIs to draw on. I would suggest that we compare the workmanship and general quality of construction of period 1813EKIIs with the highly refined appearace of this EKI.

We must keep in mind that the Iron Cross was instituted for officer and soldier alike. It was the first really democratic award that cut across class lines.

Again, I'm just the devil's advocate here. Pushing the boundaries of our conventional wisdom a bit.

Tony