Friedlander '800' PLM

[Biro]

Interesting to see the new Friedlander on Weitzes site is marked 800 (on the arm) rather than with the 938.

(It looks OK from the one solitary picture out of 7 that actually works.... )

I'm a little hazy as to whether this would indicate post-war, or wartime private purchase.

Any help here...?

Marshall

[non-soli-cedit]

f

[Biro]

Hello Rene

Thanks and welcome.

The officially sanctioned wartime production markings I am already familiar with - my query was more that this is (for me at least) the first indication that Friedlander may have also provided PLM's for the private purchase market - or post war.

I know Godet did of course, right up until at least the 30's and I'm reasonably sure Wagner may have....

I wondered if anyone recalled seeing another Friedlander with the ARM stamped '800' as opposed to the loop.

Marshall

[non-soli-cedit]

k

[Bobby lee]

Hi Marshall, I agree with Rene concerning the availability of good PLMs (original or 'wearing copies'). I listed my opinion on Brien's thread E-Bay Pour Le Merites but I have always felt the rationale of 'wearing copies' was a bit thin and used by many dealers to justify a PLM that didn't meet the standards of original examples. I am sure wearing copies or replacements were made but no where near the numbers some believe. I also agree with Rene on the dealer issue. Caveat Emptor should always be the standard when viewing any historical items. IMO the example you displayed is very questionable. I know of no production by 'FR' which had 800 on the cross itself. Rene, welcome to the forum! Your English is much better than my 'Deutsch'.

[non-soli-cedit]

d

[Biro]

Thankyou Guys..

Let me hypothesise for a moment then...

When (and if) Helmut gets round to fixing the problem with his site and the rest of the missing pictures proove that this is indeed a genuine Friedlander (I myself own a silver guilt 938 marked Friedlander PLM, and have a fairly good knowledge of the characteristics of them) where does the fact that the arm is marked 800 and not 938 put this piece in the timeline?

If it conforms exactly to Friedlanders die characteristics - (and if you've been following the threads, also Wagners... Are all period PLMs maker marked?) - then it can't simply be ruled 'fake' because it is marked 800 silver and not 938.

Perhaps Andreas or Stephen have come across one of these so marked, or could post their thoughts on whether this piece, if indeed it prooved to be genuine and 800 silver, could potentially be either Private purchase, Post War produced, or a naughty Wartime 'economy' measure.

Thanks for your input so far men....

Marshall

[non-soli-cedit]

k

[George Stimson]

I can see all of the pics on the site....

[Les]

Silberstemple markings and German law

Interesting to see the new Friedlander on Weitzes site is marked 800 (on the arm) rather than with the 938. <snip> I'm a little hazy as to whether this would indicate post-war, or wartime private purchase. Marshall

Renee has mentioned German laws about the sale of silver items being required. That is true; if the item is advertised as being silver, or said to have a silver content. What the law requires is that the amount marked is the -minium- amount of silver in the item. The item might be marked "800" but that doesn't mean the silver content can not be higher, or even as much as "935."

Another thing to remember, is that the stamp does not have to be applied when something is made...but was required to be there if/when it was being offered for sale. Consequently, it's possible for something to set in a jewelers shops for a year, two, or even much longer before it's sold. Might Friedlander have had some wartime made PlM's that weren't marked, that were sold after the war, and the silver content marked at the time of the sale after WWI when he was selling off his stock when the firm was going out of business? Is it possible that he or someone selling some of his medals after the war marked the items in accordance with German law, but used a -minimum- silver content stamp at the time of the sale?

If the Friedlander PlM that Weitze is selling is a classic Friedlander in all regards except for the silver content stamp, there's no reason to call the piece a fake and toss the baby out with the bathwater because the silver content stamp appears to be wrong (for WWI, but not for a post war sale).

There are PlMs and other medals that have been seen that do not have any silver content stamps and it's apparent that there is some silver content to them.

So, think of stamps as a -minimum- content mark, not necessarily as the precise amount. The real amount is legally required to be at least that, and can be higher. Also, the stamp need not be applied on the day or year the item was made, only when it is first offered for sale, and the actual sale might have taken place some time after the item was made.

Les

[Biro]

If the Friedlander PlM that Weitze is selling is a classic Friedlander in all regards except for the silver content stamp, there's no reason to call the piece a fake and toss the baby out with the bathwater because the silver content stamp appears to be wrong (for WWI, but not for a post war sale)...Les

Thanks Les - I agree with you on all counts here. The above paragraph in particular.


George... Weitzes' site has now been corrected. Never let it be said by Helmut that we don't provide a valuable service here!

Marshall

[non-soli-cedit]

o

[Les]

Physcis lesson

So, think of stamps as a -minimum- content mark, not necessarily as the precise amount. The real amount is legally required to be at least that, and can be higher. Also, the stamp need not be applied on the day or year the item was made, only when it is first offered for sale, and the actual sale might have taken place some time after the item was made.

Les

hello les!
if you will produce a pour le merite or an other medal which has enemal you have to stamp it before you make the enemal!!! so i think you have a big problem!at first you take a hammer in one hand and in the other hand the stamp and which kind of tool hold the "pour le merite"? without to broken the enamel?please give me a kind of tool which you can do this!
thats is the reason while such thing get a mark before they going into the oven! after ww1 friedländer was close!why should they produce pour le merites with other material inside ww1? inside ww1 the content of the silver was not so expensive! to manufacture a pour le merite need a lot of work! and such juwelry like friedländer wagner godet take a high price! you can believe a very high price!
greetings
rene[/QUOTE]

Renee,

There are numerous "Rothe" made Pour le Merites, which have had all sorts of fake stamps applied to them after they were sold by the Rothe firm. (I'm not calling Rothe piece real PlMs, but only to show how a piece with enamel and made the same way a WWI era piece was.) Rothe never made them with any markings whatsoever, but that hasn't stopped fakers from adding "W", "J.G.u.S.", "800", "935" and other marks. The fake Rothe stamped pieces are common on ebay, and they don't have broken enamel either.

If you know something about physics, it's possible to drop an egg inside a container from a three story building and not have the egg break. It all has to do with the dispersion of force or a blow. With medals, if the piece is "sandwiched" between wood or rubber blocks and held in a vise, it's possible to stamp something with enamel on it, and not have the enamel break.

Les

[Brian S]

There's enough bad information in this thread to sink the Bismarck...

[Biro]

There's enough bad information in this thread to sink the Bismarck...

Welcome back Brian...

Care to elaborate?

I know you're not a beleiver in 800 marked pieces by Wagner or Godet, as your comments in post 23 of this thread indicate... Big whopping fake

..My grandfather's PlM was awarded just about as late in the war as it could be awarded and it is marked 938. I put no faith in these 800 pieces until I see one in clear enough photos to compare that they do indeed come off the same manufacturer's tools.........As for Andreas M. Schulze Ising I know no one who is 'out there' who is more knowledgeable about enamel. He is the absolute best knowledge about Imperial medals. There is some disagreement as to his article on flight badges.

I would maintain absolutely all PlM war time pieces are all 938 (or gold). I remain unconvinced about the 800 pieces until I see one that matches the 'mold'. I am highly unconvinced that Godet and Wagner made collector's PlM's previous to WWII.

Anyone who can send me a large clear and distinct photo of a 800 marked PlM by Wagner would appreciated. I won't publish it and declare it a fake, I just want to see if it matches and then tell you what I see.

I would like to determine if Wagner did indeed produce PlM's postwar

I have posted pretty conclusive proof that Godet were still selling their WW1 pie wedge PLM's as late as 1930... Godet Catalogue - 1930's . Andreas and Stephen have previously confirmed this as well. Were they marked 938?

And now here we have a Friedlander marked 800 on the arm (NOT the loop....). If Friedlander sourced their PLM's (or some of the parts) off Wagner as has been indicated recently, and you don't beleive in 800 Wagners, then this piece was either errently marked during the late WW1, or marked 800 after the war.

I'm only trying to learn here, so what say you about this 800 marked piece, and 800 marked pieces in general?

regards

Marshall