Previously Unknown Pour le Merite?

[GdC26]

And I have no horse in this discussion other than protect collectors from throwing their money away on rubbish.

Same motive here.

[Brian S]

No duplicity on that PlM either. It is not a JO rework by any proof so far. Rather side by side speaks otherwise.

[GdC26]

No duplicity on that PlM either. It is not a JO rework by any proof so far. Rather side by side speaks otherwise.

Thanks Brian. There couldn't be any duplicity anyway - I remembered the grouping only this morning, and originally seemed to recall it had two Godet PLM's in it. Then I checked the pics and saw my recollection was wrong. I posted because of the similarity with ErikN's cross. I would have expected a "thank you " for that contribution, but got my motives questioned by Don instead. A sign of the times, I guess....

[Zepenthusiast]

Half the fun of any thread is watching it evolve in unexpected directions, so much the better!

Devil is in the details, though, guys. Note that neither of the probable (?) post-war JO-like crosses is a full match to the other. Yes, they are both based upon the fundamental eagle design of the Rechtsritter JO (as opposed to the eagles of the thread-starting cross, which match the design of the Ehrenritter JO). Their crowns and lettering are totally different from each other, however. Being bronze in the one case, one wonders if the piece is cast and not die-made. If so, easiest way to make a mold, if you aren't Wagner or Godet, is to start with a Johanniter in hand and cook off the enamel (assuming of course that the jeweler doing the work didn't themselves make the JO and not need to cook off the enamel). That said, neither is a true match to the other and so you now have two non-standard PlMs in wear that are both clearly based upon a JO design. If you don't recognize that eagle pattern is classic (and universal) among the Rechtsritter JO, Brian, then you do not know JO's. By size and form the "R"JO was obviously the base model for both the one Sandro posted (and Thank you! to you for doing so is due, Sandro) and ErikN's, perhaps only by way of being a model for a mold, but hard to imagine someone going to all the trouble to fabricate the PlM version from scratch in the face of the more obvious source.

Second, neither of you (Sandro and Brian) have apparently considered that the Loewenstein cross I posted is obviously a fabrication from a Johanitter, albeit also a Rechtsritter grade. Look at the suspension on it! Does that look like it is of any higher quality than David's PlM would have been when it still had its suspension grommet intact? Look at the lettering on Loewenstein's cross, the "r" in "rite" particularly is every bit is imprecisely formed as the thread-starter. The crown is better done, but my point that is being dismissed without comment is this absolutely is a pre-1918 fabricated gold PlM in actual wear. How is that "my fantasy"?

I think Dave's speculation as to whether his PlM could have been given to/made for a foreign recipient was tossed out in the face of its exotic appearance and place of reported long-term storage (correct, Dave?), but the more immediate and interesting question is could it have been made for some awardee, in fact, under the exact same auspices as Loewenstein's cross? Maybe by a marginally less talented jeweler, but also possibly due to the extreme scarcity of precious metals late in the War, coupled with known challenges of actually obtaining the awarded official PlM--it's known some were only delivered after the war ended, for instance. If for whatever reason you wanted a gold cross, where were you going to get the gold? Why did Loewenstein want his? I don't know, but he clearly did and that isn't just my supposition or wishful make-believe.

I'd add to that to appreciate how not-so-"fugly" Dave's PlM is, you do need to look at photos taken from actual "eye distance" as opposed to the close-ups. It in fact has nice color, there is nicely executed pillowing on the reverse, the shine of the gold offers depth and glitter no gilded silver seems to be able to fully deliver and the crown and letters aren't so distracting as they are in close analysis.

[VtwinVince]

I have to agree with the above post, clearly the quality of the cross enamel in the OP and the Loewenhardt cross are BOTH not up to the standards of the Ordenskanzlei, or Prussian society in general.BTW Brian, your Opa was called 'Excellenz' not for being a PLM-Traeger, but for having attained the rank of Generalleutnant, which came with the honorific, just like my esteemed ancestor, Georg von Heimburg. Anyway, I find the closed-minded and arrogant attitudes of some participants in this thread to be pretty typical of this forum.

[Don D.]

Brian, Sandro, I don't have a dog in this fight either. I merely wanted to discuss the piece. Its not every day you see fakers using a real gold item to produce a fake. I personally don't know what to make of it. And Sandro, pardon me for being skeptical of your motives. We have a lot of coincidences now days and facts are hard to come by.

ps- I too have a life outside of collecting and my interests in this stuff wains. That is why I find the oddities more intriguing.

[Zepenthusiast]

The real problem Don is you've opened the door to Zep's fantastical misrepresentations of what we see and what exists.

This is a fake. Let Zep take over the thread with his nonsense. And that is all it is. I can usually respect opinions based on real theory and photographs but his posts have been nonsense and most importantly misleading to new collectors.

I have thick skin, Brian, and can shrug off a lot in good humor, but given the Loewenstein photo I provided, the above comment is both undeserved and pretty outta-line.

Jim

[Brian S]

I have to agree with the above post, clearly the quality of the cross enamel in the OP and the Loewenhardt cross are BOTH not up to the standards of the Ordenskanzlei, or Prussian society in general.BTW Brian, your Opa was called 'Excellenz' not for being a PLM-Traeger, but for having attained the rank of Generalleutnant, which came with the honorific, just like my esteemed ancestor, Georg von Heimburg. Anyway, I find the closed-minded and arrogant attitudes of some participants in this thread to be pretty typical of this forum.

I should have added he was called Excellenz when wearing civilian clothes with only the PlM in his lapel. It was that obvious. And yes to your nod to standards of Prussian society.



So... Am I closed minded because I agree the quality is not up to a basic standard? Or I am closed minded because I can see no clear path to originality of a cobbed up JO?

[Brian S]

I have thick skin, Brian, and can shrug off a lot in good humor, but given the Loewenstein photo I provided, the above comment is both undeserved and pretty outta-line.

Jim

Jim, it seems like you try so hard to make treasure out of trash with fantastical paragraphs of what ifs. There is fact and fiction. Blurry period photographs are the realm of maybes and so often not bottom line proof.



Do you really want to be the guy whose post is read and someone goes out and spends a few thousand on a 'maybe' and gets burned? I sure don't. I'd rather a piece go back into a display case until real proof materializes.


Am I absolutely wrong on this? Maybe. But better we don't let this be a maybe and rather be a probably not based on everything else we know.


I just don't live in a fantastical world where maybe some vet approached Snow White and her dwarfs cobbed up a PlM. Either it is or isn't and for now it just plain isn't...



You try so hard to believe, and in a hobby this expensive, I don't think that's a healthy virtue for everyone around you, meaning the readers of these threads. There is concrete proof and there is blurry 'could be', 'might be', 'looks like it sort of to me'...

[Don D.]

We've all seen items that had a "story" added but when the item turned out to be bad the story fell apart as well. That is the danger but does it mean we quit looking/digging?

[Zepenthusiast]

Jim, it seems like you try so hard to make treasure out of trash with fantastical paragraphs of what ifs. There is fact and fiction. Blurry period photographs are the realm of maybes and so often not bottom line proof.

The photo of Loewenhardt isn't challenging at all for distinguishing the relative size and form of the eagles and their tail feather pattern. There were two Sanke Card pictures taken the same day which reinforce it. But even if you can't see that, the cross remains in the hands of Loewenhardt's family (note the photo attribution "thanks to" at its base) and your disputing Lance Bronnenkant there, not me. I guess you think they are all "making treasure out of trash" with the family heirloom?

[Brian S]

Not challenging Loewenhardt items. But I say trash to PlM shown in first post from JO as pure trash. Don't try to discredit me with things I never said. Go back and read my post regarding that PlM in his Nazi uniform.


My post 87 says in the between years much was possible except the trash that started this thread.

[Don D.]

So you are saying that only quality trash was produced between the wars? How about from 1934-45?

[Brian S]

So you are saying that only quality trash was produced between the wars? How about from 1934-45?

Come on Don, if it was made pre-1945 it has collector value. The piece that started this thread does NOT, to quote Sandro and reaffirm my own position, conform to anything made in that period. WWI PlMs much more valuable than other pre '45 made but all pre-45 were made for awardees.



But the JO piece, not good enough for a period piece. Why would someone wear that junk when Wagner and Godet were readily available? They would not.



My Opa didn't need a second PlM. Kept his nice till the end of his life. These guys didn't 'stock up' on extra pieces. If you were a Wehrmacht guy, sure, buy an 'el cheapo' so your award piece wouldn't get broken in the field or at your desk in Poland or wherever.



Don, if you want to believe the piece that started this thread is remotely possible to pre-45. You are welcome to believe that. Would I lose some respect for you opinion if you did, yes I would. It's why Tim C. and I got along so well, we don't put ribbons on pigs and try to pass them off as race horses.

[Brian S]

Make it simple...


Do you believe the piece that started this thread is genuine, as of today with evidence presented?


Yes or No. Don't need 2,000 words. Enough here to go one away or another. No more proof coming today.



Don?
Jim?

Erick?
Vince?



Brian No
Sandro No