Previously Unknown Pour le Merite?

[David Christian]

Jim: I am glad that you got to take a look at this thread. Thank you so much for this research and contribution. I don't know how in the world you found that example of a Johanniter Orden. I never would have thought to link the two awards together, except by shape. This makes sense, as many of the leaders of Europe belonged to this Order pre-1918. It was an international order that varied in design from time to time and from country to country, based on the large white Maltese cross. It does fit with this PlM, and infers that Werner may have made both awards or modified this one from another maker. It amazes me the resources that members of this site can bring to bear on our discussions. Notice the grommet in the suspension that is obviously missing on the PlM example. I have not found where J.H. Werner made this Order, but I will do more research. It has to be the most likely conclusion. The J.O. was always larger than the standard PlM. Another important clue is the red presentation box. I know that J.H. Werner used this type of box. I have a picture of a Werner presentation case in my archives that I will post when I find it. I need to do a little more research. Stay tuned.

[darekm]

I agree that it would be worth looking at examples of the Johanniter Orden to see if you can find one with the exact same eagle details and overall dimensions. I think it is likely the origin of this piece.

[VtwinVince]

Very interesting updates gentlemen. I would be very surprised to find that a modern faker went to these lengths to furnish a spurious PLM. Judging from the wear, this thing was worn quite a bit. The mystery deepens.

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Vince,

My main concern that this could be a post-WWII innovation is the Eastern European source, since there have been some quite talented "old school" jewelers there, who until relatively recently had good cause to invest time and skill for western currency opportunity. To re-enamel a JO in blue and apply gilded lettering in a painted-on fashion might be well worth their while, if it attracted the desired attention as a PlM rather than "just" a much less well known JO. Were that the case, the metal wear is real, but wear accumulated in the badge's life as a JO before the conversion. The result is obviously convincing enough that we are having a hard time dismissing it : )

As i mentioned earlier, the correlate of your good logic is why would someone in the 1890-1916 era commission conversion of a JO with the associated labor challenges, when they could just buy one from Godet?

Best!

Jim

[David Christian]

Kudos, Jim. Thanks for your efforts and the discussion. Making a conversion post-WWII is definitely logical. I am hoping that there is some way that it can be proven that the PLM was made at the JHW firm from JO parts. I found the pictures of the red JHW box and will post them below. Were there any other pictures of the JO from the auction source? I was hoping for a picture of the bottom edge of the 6 o'clock arm or a picture of the inside of the presentation box. You can see that the boxes are similar. The weight of the PlM is more than the advertised JO, while the width listed is almost the same. In researching the JO, the medium ranks of the Order have the black eagles and the 57.5 mm width, while a higher rank would be wider with gold eagles. One would have to assume that the conversion was made from the 57.5 mm version. The letters of the PlM are in gold and are not painted on. The edges of the enamel around the lettering show that the letters go all the way down into the enamel, indicating to me that the blue enamel had to be applied after the lettering. If you check the pictures of the crown and the lettering, you can see wear marks and edges that show that they extend down into the enamel. I believe that this would have to be done at the factory. The outside edges of the enamel are sharp, but slightly rougher around the lettering. The enamel is convex, a little more than on the JO (as it looks to me), so that it comes up to the edges of the crown and lettering. An argument could be made that JHW had the parts (except for the lettered front piece) and made a prototype. I cannot find a place where anyone says that they made JO's, however. Does anyone know who was making them pre-WWI? Is it possibly a secret of the Order as to where their decorations came from? As the Kaiser was the head of the Order in Germany, I would expect the court jewelers to have the inside track.

[David Christian]

Hey Guys: One of the reasons that I posted this PlM was to see if anyone had ever seen one of this style before. Jim came through with the Johanniter Orden - Order of St. John picture which explains some things. I am asking if anyone in their studies or research has come across a picture of a converted PlM of this style in wear? It seems to me that several years ago I was trying to find a picture of a Rothe & Neffe in wear pre-1918, and I stumbled across a picture of an officer wearing a PlM with extremely long eagle wings. I did not think anything about it at that time because it was not a Rothe. Of course, I have been scouring through my resources to see if I can re-find that picture, but have had no luck thus far. Most period photos are hard to see details in, but seeing a converted JO PlM in wear might help settle the matter. It may be impossible to find that evidence, especially if this piece is one of a kind. I may be grasping at straws. I do not have a photographic memory, only an occasionally pornographic one.

Jim's theory about someone besides JHW making the conversion does make a lot of sense. If we carry that logic forward, the enterprising eastern block jeweler would probably have made the piece post-WWII as mentioned above. If that were true, we would have expected the piece to have made its way west during the Cold War or shortly thereafter in exchange for western currency. The piece on this thread did indeed come from a part of the former Soviet Union; the former Republic of Georgia. It was there in a collection until this year (2020), 30 years after the Iron Curtain came down. They collected MY western currency, but why was the PlM put away where it was for so long? If it were built for the purpose of hitting the western collector's market during or just after the Cold War, the timing may be a bit off. It was not used for the purpose for which it was converted at that time. Another question is, what would a stock JO bring at that time? It would probably not be as valuable as a PlM, but would a conversion be worth the trouble, especially to make a non-standard PlM? Would you gain enough value to make it worthwhile to ruin a JO? I do not know the market for JO's or what period pieces go for.

I guess the bottom line is, why does this piece exist at all? I have a hunch that we should believe the maker's mark. Jim- you are right in that it would be much easier for a person needing a second to pick up a Godet or Wagner, but here is this converted JO.

[Don D.]

I wonder just how easy it would have been to get s second piece, especially if you just wanted to preserve your awarded piece and have a different one for day to day wear. For instance, does the Deutsche Officer Verein catalog have a listing for the PLM and if so, who was their supplier?

[Eagle]

I think the shown red WERNER case is a fake.

Its a mistake in HOFJUWELIER and nobody in germany write his housenumber before and after the streetname.
Next mistake: Friedrichstr. is one word. Its not called Friedrich Str.

[David Christian]

Thanks for the comments. Cases are a place where I have very limited expertise. There is an endless supply of reproductions and artificially aged cases on line, but you just do not see JHW cases, so I thought it was worthy of note. This case was for sale on line several years ago and I saved the pics for reference.

Don- That is a good suggestion. I wonder if there is a list for the JO as well as the PlM. I don't know about the organization that you are referencing. If JHW is a recognized supplier of the JO, that helps make the case. I have never heard them discussed as a maker of the PlM, only a retailer and possible finisher for Wagner.

[David Christian]

Mr. Eagle: The label in the lower left of post 21 does have 173 in front and in back of the street name, so that may have been the way they stylized their label. If the box is a fake, the inside label design may still be based on an actual embossing or label. I agree with your observation on Friederichstrasse, although there are streets in Berlin where it is two words. On the Godet-Werner letterhead on the right side of post 21 you can see a faint reference to a Franzosische Strasse location. Thanks again for your comments. -Dave

[naxos]

I think the shown red WERNER case is a fake.

Its a mistake in HOFJUWELIER and nobody in germany write his housenumber before and after the streetname.
Next mistake: Friedrichstr. is one word. Its not called Friedrich Str.

+1 Agree, case is an obvious fake

[GdC26]

+1 Agree, case is an obvious fake

+1. By now, one has to wonder what we are still really debating here - a bad PLM with an obviously bad case?
Kind regards,
Sandro

[Don D.]

Are we not a discussion forum or is everything about the Imperial period known? If so, what are we doing here? I for one like the thought that there are oddities out there and look forward to hearing from fellow collectors about them. Whether they turn out to be fake or original is a bonus in the end.

I do know that the nobility could and did commission pieces that were not exactly like awarded pieces. Heck, even that fat douche bag Goering had a thing for bling. That is what makes Imperial so interesting imo.

[GdC26]

Are we not a discussion forum or is everything about the Imperial period known? If so, what are we doing here? I for one like the thought that there are oddities out there and look forward to hearing from fellow collectors about them. Whether they turn out to be fake or original is a bonus in the end.

I do know that the nobility could and did commission pieces that were not exactly like awarded pieces. Heck, even that fat douche bag Goering had a thing for bling. That is what makes Imperial so interesting imo.

We are indeed a discussion forum, but at some point logic defies hope. Everyone can entertain their own beliefs, but at some point a potentially valid hypothesis has been falsified and should be abandoned.

I've set out in my first response why I believe the cross at hand is not what it purports to be (including reasons to doubt the J.H.Werner logo, with a reference to a recent book on Berlin court jewelers), and Jim has added a plausible hypothesis of his own.

True, high nobility occasionally did buy or commission pieces that were not exactly "Probemäßig", but those cases are not that common, and mostly involved high quality substitutes for pieces which were not generally available. The piece at hand with oversized eagles, poor lettering and enamel leaking from a weep hole, is not (such) (a) high quality piece. Moreover, as already noted by several contributors to the thread, anyone who wanted a golden PLM would have been more likely to turn to a known maker like Godet or for Austrians, Rothe.

All indications therefore are this cross is bad (and I think I understood that even the owner of the cross acknodledges that).

Nevertheless, we now seem to be debating the attribution to J.H. Werner on the basis of a case that is clearly false (just check out the spelling of "Hofjuwelier" as "Hofjuweleir").

This is where for me, the debate crosses into the absurd: but, as always, I stand to be corrected if anyone has better factual information (which used to be and hopefully still is the currency in this forum, although, here as elsewhere, it increasingly seems to be trumped by opinion) on the cross at hand. Given the state of the debate, "outliers exist" just doesn't do it for me anymore I'm afraid: but that is of course just my view.


Kind regards,
Sandro

[David Christian]

Thanks, Sandro. I think that I need to re-state a few things to clarify the discussion. The waters have been muddied, so to speak. I believe the pictures that I posted of the red presentation box demonstrate that it is fake. There seems to be a misunderstanding. It did not come with the cross that we are discussing. I only included it as a possible JHW box that sort of matched the one that was presented in the picture with the Johanniterorden, which we have to assume is genuine. Two different presentation boxes, neither of which are associated with the PlM at hand. The photos of the inside are from a fake box that was for sale on line. Unfortunately, those photos have distracted our discussion. Let us leave the box discussion behind us.

The point at hand is to establish the possible source of the PlM. The fact that it matches the JO from Jim's post shows that it is a converted JO. The width is a match. That leaves us with the question of who would convert a JO? Jim's theory is very logical if one starts with who has access to such a JO? The answer is either the JHW shop or a jeweler that has come across a JO and has the skill, patience and resources to remove the white enamel, add gold lettering, then re-apply blue enamel. My point is, in spite of its flaws, it is also logical to assume that the cross could have come out of the JHW shop. Our discussion should be about which of the two theories may be more plausible if we agree that both are possible. If we establish that JHW made Johanniterorden, that will help our discussion along. They would have the parts on hand and would only have to add the lettering.