Blue Max award oopinions please

[Forssmann]

Thanks guy's for all the comments and help. Yes, I wish it were easier to determine year of manufacture, that seems to be my dilemma.

You should post this over in the 1957ers awards forum. I'm pretty sure the PLM experts frequent that forum more than the Imperial as generally most PLMs are post war since war time examples are extremely expensive to the average collector.

[Don D.]

Thanks guy's for all the comments and help. Yes, I wish it were easier to determine year of manufacture, that seems to be my dilemma.

Enzo (Elmar Lang) will be along eventually. He knows Austrian manufactured awards.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I apologize for not being present as often as in the past.

A friend of mine talked to me about this interesting thread, so here I am.

The Pour le Mérite illustrated in this discussion, after what I can see in the pictures, was made by Messrs. Rothe & Neffe, Vienna.

Determining whether the piece was made earlier than 1918, is a difficult task, due to the fact that this firm, originally maker of orders from all over the world, continued to produce until the mid 70s of 20th Century, although with varying quality in the finish and workmanship.

Does the piece show any marks? Are the letters with chiseled/engraved details? Would it be possible to exactly determine the metal? (gold, gilt silver, gilt bronze).

Talking to Lady Rothe in 1979, she was kind enough to show me a PLM of their production, struck with the original, pre-1918 austrian silver marks; the enamel was of a darker shade of blue, if compared to the prussian-made pieces, and in a black morocco case of austrian type (with rounded, forward side), the lid, embossed with -if I correctly remember-

PREUSSEN
POUR-LE-MERITE
ORDEN

I regret to say that I don't know the whereabouts of this piece.

I remember that there exist at least one picture of the Archduke Joseph, wearing what can be identified as a "Rothe-made" cross. Not being at home and replying via-mobile phone, I find some difficulties with web-searching.

An austrian-made Pour le Mérite also when being a sure pre-1918 piece, has to be considered as a "private-purchased" one and, honestly, without any proven and sound provenance -unless pre 1918 marks are present on the cross- it will be very difficult to surely determine if the cross under inspection was made prior to the fall of the central empires.

All the best,

Enzo (E.L.)

[cobra-2001]

Plm

Here is one with the dark blue color like Elmar was talking about . I owned it and sold it to a member on here who had it but I did see him put it up for sale a while back . Cliff

[HowardC]

Blue Max

Enzo,
Thank you for that very interesting information. To answer your questions as I so far know: It is gold and there are no marks to be found. However I will be inspecting it in much greater depth this weekend and will report any difference in findings then. It was my great desire to try and determine time of manufacture and perhaps what these are considered to be valued at. Thank you.

[medalnet]

Rothe in Vienna made those into the 1970th

[Elmar Lang]

Here is one with the dark blue color like Elmar was talking about . I owned it and sold it to a member on here who had it but I did see him put it up for sale a while back . Cliff

I fear this is a copy of a Rothe copy…

All the best,

Enzo

[HowardC]

Blue Max

Based on what research there is and what Enzo is saying, the one you had Cliff shows a solid tail at the points where it meets the cross on the one you have shown. I believe, please correct me if not, there should be full detail at the feathers point with nothing solid.

[cobra-2001]

plm

Hi as what happens on here many times later someone comes along to disagree .When this plm was shown by a member here it was stated as good Rothe plm. There are a couple different ones of Rothe PLM out there . This happens more often than not on here someone comes along and states it is not original show me the facts .the detail on this one is very good. The fan tail didn't have the material removed at the bottom but it looks like it is from where it was mounted to the plm .I going to try to fine the original posting of the Rothe that I show . Cliff

[HowardC]

Blue Max

Cliff, that sounds like a great idea. Your award has very nice detail.

[cobra-2001]

plm

Here is the thread when the new member sold the two Rothe plms. The first one had a case and the second one was the one I show here. The first one looks like the one another member post on page two of this thread. It did not have the pie wedge top but a loop. Here is the thread but the pictures are long gone . But you can read what they posted. Cliff http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com.foru...read.?t=548681

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I regret to say that I cannot open the page given on the link.

Of course, being human, I can do mistakes, but after what I saw in the above pictured PLM, allowed me to write that there are differences from a piece made by Rothe, Vienna. Maybe, I've seen that piece in the past already, not paying on it the necessary attention.

I'm not used to sharp statements, nor ruining other's pieces, but just humbly putting my nearly 45 years of studying and collecting Imperial Austrian orders and decorations, also re. the austrian production of foreign orders.

I will be glad to silently see the evolution of this otherwise interesting thread.

All the best,

Enzo (E.L.)

[GdC26]

Hi as what happens on here many times later someone comes along to disagree .When this plm was shown by a member here it was stated as good Rothe plm. There are a couple different ones of Rothe PLM out there . This happens more often than not on here someone comes along and states it is not original show me the facts .the detail on this one is very good. The fan tail didn't have the material removed at the bottom but it looks like it is from where it was mounted to the plm .I going to try to fine the original posting of the Rothe that I show . Cliff

You're not wrong generally, but the qualifications of the person making the comment matter. Enzo is an expert in the field of Austrian decorations, Andreas in the field of German ones (including, specifically, PLM), so their opinions carry weight in my view.
Kind regards,
Sandro

[cobra-2001]

You're not wrong generally, but the qualifications of the person making the comment matter. Enzo is an expert in the field of Austrian decorations, Andreas in the field of German ones (including, specifically, PLM), so their opinions carry weight in my view.
Kind regards,
Sandro

I agree but if the link would open he did discuss it. Cliff