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Amazing JR17 steel helmet

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    #16
    Originally posted by Jägermeister View Post
    Bernhard is right

    The helmet shell was produced "long" (some years) after the Reichswehr decals (in this case blue/yellow for Braunschweig) were phased out.
    These province colors were replaced by the black-white-red-decal and then replaced by the double decals, we all know (eagle with swastika on one side and b/w/r-decal on the other).

    Also the shortening of the word "Braunschweig" in the inner rim is very unusual for the German language.

    I would give it back - sorry.
    Thanks Jagermeister,

    I appreciate the reply, I was not questioning "Bernhard's" judgement. Instead, I was expanding on what he had said in the hope of learning more about these.

    The reality is that I can not find out much at all about Reichswehr helmets anywhere. There just does not seem to be any serious study or photos of them that has ever been made. Only found two or three images of the Reichswehr provincial shields. All of the shields varied a bit from each other.

    Can not even find any fake Reichswher provicial shields for sale. There just does not seem to be any interest in such helmets from this period.

    I am not worried about sending the helmet back because it does not owe me much money and is not really worth the hassel.

    The guy I brought this off had over 1500 different helmets from all around the world and had been collecting them for many years but he has given up now. He had no idea that it was even Reichswehr and was given it with several other German helmets for some stamps from a stamp album in the pre-internet days,

    Chris
    Last edited by 90th Light; 09-27-2012, 07:14 AM.

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      #17
      Not so Amazing JR17 steel helmet

      Perhaps a thread title change is in order to 'Not so Amazing JR17 steel helmet '?

      Just a thought.

      Comment


        #18
        Yes, 90th Light, these Reichswehr helmets are not so often found in collections. On the other hand side there are only a few Reichswehr-collectors out there.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Jägermeister View Post
          Yes, 90th Light, these Reichswehr helmets are not so often found in collections. On the other hand side there are only a few Reichswehr-collectors out there.
          Thank you Jagermeister,

          I must say that I am surprised by the lack of publication about Reichswehr helmets. This has aroused my interest, I must confess. My research into this has begun.

          One thing I have discovered so far is the the 17 Infantry Regiment was known as

          ""Das 17. (Preuß.-Braunschw.) Infanterie-Regiment wurde bei der Bildung des 100.000 Mann-Heeres der Reichswehr am 1. Januar 1921.""

          Now it is interesting that they use the abreviation " Braunschw " in the title up until 1934 when the title changed back to full version using " Braunschweig "

          ""Bei der Erweiterung der Reichswehr zur Wehrmacht wurde das Regiment am 1. Oktober 1934 zum Infanterie-Regiment Braunschweig umbenannt.""

          Then in 1935 the use of the " Braunschweig " is dropped from the title

          ""Bei der Enttarnung der Verbände wurde es am 15. Oktober 1935 zum Infanterie-Regiment 17 umbenannt.""

          Thus it is referred to from then on as "I.R.17 until 1942 when the name changes yet again.

          ""Am 15. Oktober 1942 erfolgte dann die Umbenennung des Regiments zum Grenadier-Regiment 17.""

          Thus the 4./ JR 17 (Brunsch) is both interesting and looks to be appropriate for the period 1/ January/ 1921 to 1/ October/ 1934. In fact it might even be approriate until 15/ October/ 1935 ???

          Chris
          Last edited by 90th Light; 09-28-2012, 11:40 PM.

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            #20
            I have to say it all looks totally bogus sorry to say, especially that nice clean naming to the interior and the insignia . There looks to have been a thin black wash applied . There is a collector here in England ( wrote lots of books on the subject ) he had a massive helmet collection and an awfull lot of those were bogus . Still if it was cheap a good shelf filler . I have a WW1 helmet with a hand painted shield on it somewhere and it does look old not new . Rob
            God please take justin bieber and gave us dio back

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              #21
              Originally posted by ROBB View Post
              I have to say it all looks totally bogus sorry to say, especially that nice clean naming to the interior and the insignia . There looks to have been a thin black wash applied . There is a collector here in England ( wrote lots of books on the subject ) he had a massive helmet collection and an awfull lot of those were bogus . Still if it was cheap a good shelf filler . I have a WW1 helmet with a hand painted shield on it somewhere and it does look old not new . Rob
              Thanks for the posting Robb,

              I understand what you mean about the "thin black wash" and how fakers have used that over the years. Yesterday I asked one of the specialists at the art restoration shop about it. Especially how old the paint on the helmet & rim might be

              They do a lot of restoration for the museum. She highly magnified the light crazing on the Brunschweig shield and could see the different litho layers from which it is made. This seemingly is correct for Germany in the late 20's & early 30's. Whatever they have used to apply the shield, it will not react to meths or diluted acetone. There is slight yellowing/ browning to varnish/ lacquer covering both the shield and the skull. There is none on the marking which is on the rim but again the paint used there will not react to meths or diluted acetone. She suspects the rim paint might be lead (or ersatz for lead) based but would need to test it to find out exactly.

              Honestly I do not know what to make of it but I am really enjoying the investigation and as I have already said, I did not pay very much for it,

              Chris
              Last edited by 90th Light; 09-30-2012, 07:15 AM.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Bernhard View Post
                The helmet shown was made in austria in 1934 or '35 by the firm
                of Artur Krupp Metallwarenfabrik in Berndorf to fulfill a contract they
                had received from the austrian police.

                So what you have is a Polizeihelm of the austrian police from the mid
                thierties with a very nice outside paint in policegreen.
                From your pics the inside looks to be painted in another color.

                From the above said I must admit that I think that all the insignias and
                Markings on your helmet are totally bogus.Sorry !

                Best regards

                Bernhard
                That's how I see it. Markings, and name as well.
                Willi

                Preußens Gloria!

                sigpic

                Sapere aude

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post
                  That's how I see it. Markings, and name as well.
                  Hello Willi,

                  thanks for having a look. I understand what you are saying. Things look to be just a bit too fresh & in excellent condition esp. considering the age and time frame that this one would have passed through if all was correct.

                  To be honest , I am open to all possibilities when it come to this one. It has however, got my interest going and I am want to know more about Reichswehr helmets. There does not seem to be much at all about them which is some what surprising.

                  Seemingly the "bear/ 64" marking in a 1930's Austrian police helmet is very unusual. There is more information on its way to me about when these helmets were made. In the mean time, here is something already stated here on WAF about the 1917/ 18 examples by this maker together with an image of the WW1 marking.


                  Originally posted by Lee Moore View Post
                  It is an Austrian (actually Austro-Hungarian) helmet manufactured by the Krupp factory at Berndorf. Their stamp is the walking bear and the size is 64 (I believe all of these helmets were manufactured only in size 64). Many collectors refer to these as Hungarian WW1 helmets, but these were issued to all AH forces. The cloth chinstrap with friction buckle is absolutely correct. The liner and paint also appear good from the photos. This model is very rare and even rarer complete.
                  <O</O
                  Lee


                  Chris
                  Attached Files

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                    #24
                    I am amazed how little information is available about these helmet so I may as well add what I have been finding out here.


                    "Steel helmet emblems

                    Shortly after the end of the Great War numerous Freikorps wore various emblems (e.g. coat-of arms, shields, skulls, etc.) painted on the side or the front of steel helmets for identification purposes. After certain volunteer units had been incorporated to the Provisional Reichswehr the usage of such emblems continued for a short while.

                    On December 07, 1920 Army District Command VII applied for a partitioned diagonally blue-and-white shield for helmets worn by Bavarian units. After approval by the Reichswehr ministry Bavarians started wearing such emblems officially, sometimes with the unit number painted above.

                    Emblems for all the other states were instituted by the decree of June 17, 1921. Shields pointing towards the bottom were about 4 cm high and 3,6 cm wide. State colors, except for Baden, were separated diagonally from bottom left to top right. In the case of tricolor emblems central strip was about 1 cm wide.

                    Emblems were painted in oil on the left side of the steel helmet under the ventilation bolt. Due to various reasons size and shape of shields differed from one unit to another."
                    Attached Files

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                      #25
                      I found this info here http://www.antique-photos.com/en/uni...t-emblems.html Very good site,

                      Chris
                      Attached Files

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                        #26
                        The state shield on my helmet appears to be the larger size like the one on this helmet as opposed to the smaller 4CM x 3.6CM official type,

                        Chris
                        Attached Files

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