RE: Thale B-II Stahlhelm auction

[Mike G.]

B/ii

Photo 13:
Last photo.
Ismael, thank you for submitting these pictures to the forum for review and anlysis. Shortly you are sure to start receiving comments and input. It will be interesting to see what the more knowledgeable collectors note, observe and comment.

Regardless, I enjoyed loading these pictures for you.

[paracaidista]

Thanks.

Michael I said you in a private message but I like to say you here in the forum too that "THANK YOU" for help me to put the photos here and for your coments about the helmet.

And what I like is that rest of the people say me what think about it and please any question is welcome.

In the past I say Ice and my friend Jaime from Méjico not to put the maker marks in any place (they had the photos) but I was thought and decide that if people could not see all the helmet they could not have a real vision.

Well, thanks all that people.

And now please opinions........

[iannima]

I can in no way claim to be an expert... least of all of Fascist markings... but I have to say that the helmet looks remarkably different from an M56. I thought the same of Brian's, and this other one confirms the impression in much the same way. Given the money involved, it is - I suppose- conceivable that someone would fabricate a fake... but as Brian was saying in an earlier post, starting from an M56, quite SUBSTANTIAL work and expertise would be needed in order to get something that differs so much...
How is one to interpret the markings? Is this then a BII? Is the Reichsadler normally to be found inside Nazi era helmets?
I do hope it turns to be genuine ...as it is nice to think that things like these can still be found out there...

[Jägermeister]

An eagle is not normally found in WKII-helmets..

Sorry for my opinion, but I would not want this BII in my collection.
I don´t think, it is real.

To explain my opinion:

- the eagle. It can´t be found on original helmets from this period. It was always my question, why not, when everything else was proof-stamped - but not the helmets.. but it was like I said: no eagle in helmets.

- the circumstances of the auction: the seller claimed, he - or in this case she - would have no idea, what she sold here, but was clever enough to put it in the right ebay-category. Mmmh... And the seller was able to name exactly these keywords a helmetcollector will go for it: B and the II and the unknown... and this, though the seller states, that he or she has no clue about it..

- the helmet-rim: it is not like the ones I would expect from original BII helmets. I talked to a good friend of me, who had a real BII helmet - he has it no more, but it was a real one. He stated some differences in the rim, this helmet has not. I will not explain this further to avoid that the bad guys out there will have some important informations, but it doesn´t look like the originals.

This and some further points had influence on me to come to the decision: I do not bid on this helmet. From the pix posted here I think, I was right.

I hope for the buyer, that I am wrong!! Serious, I really hope! But the problem with these helmets is the fact, that they are so extraordinary rare that everybody can come to other conclusions because nobody exactly knows, what to think.

You can also think, that this post is only bull-sXXt. Why not? The most people out there have never seen an original in real, me included.

[heinkan]

...I talked to a good friend of me, who had a real BII helmet - he has it no more, but it was a real one...

There must be millions of this helmets... Everybody had one or is knowing somebody who had one!

[paracaidista]

all conclusions are good come for me but really I´m very happy with the item, I have now about a hundred original german helmets from years of collection buying it in each part of the world and if you understand me you know when you have it in your hands if is good or not, who smells the tact all say something.

The woman sold it, I can confirm is a lady and about the form of sell it I can say much thing.

First: She sold it only in German (why dont put it in all the world to sell so much millions of people could see it to won bid?).
Second: If you know the sistem in ebay auctions you know if you put a photograph at the searches you have much more posibilitys people see your item (well she dont put nothing at all of that).
The advertisement was the cheapest sistem in ebay, she dont like to spend money in something that all people out of this world of collectionism dont pay more than 20 / 30 Euros.
Third: Is very simple to know in wich part of ebay put the advertaisement helmet = military or not?. perhaps was better put it in electronic or in cars ???.
Four: BII (is normal she put this in the advertise is what was stamped in the helmet.
Fifth: If I like to sell something like this and know how much money it can cost probably I put much more pictures than 2 (and very bad made) I'm sure I could put about 10 as minimum.
Six: Member ebay from 2.003 and never sell nothing about millitaria hum hum only skirts , trousers , love books and love compat discs hum hum.
I say that as a original helmet smell and ebay seller smell too.

[paracaidista]

I saw Michael dont put photographs from right side so I put this in photobucket for Michael dont work more in this.


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/h...0/P1240003.jpg

[paracaidista]

Jagërmeister another question for you that is in my head.

You say that a friend of you had a original BII and now he dont have and you say too that no one know exactly who BII could have been.

Well, Who your friend knows the one he had was a real one?.

I have some m42 helmets and as more I see my BII as more similar seems to me to m42 than a DDR helmet. For example the borders are exactly as a m42.

About the eagle stamped I knew that this could be a controbelsial theme but as this helmet is as special why dont to think that from this prototype germans like to do this maker mark to all helmets manufactures?.

What I like to know is what kind of stamp is this and find it in a Knife or dagger or in a pistol to contrast it.

As Ice recomendate me I puted this question in the apropiate forum here in wermach awards last week, but at this moment no one answer this.

[heinkan]

What I like to know is what kind of stamp is this and find it in a Knife or dagger or in a pistol to contrast it.

Similar to a WaA-Abnahmestempel (approval stamp), but this makes no sense in a helmet. Jägermeister is right in this point, the stamp is most unusual.

Example approval stamp:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=waa+eagle

[Jägermeister]

There must be millions of this helmets... Everybody had one or is knowing somebody who had one!

Not everybody, but I know one.. No need to tip your head. You know nothing about me and even less about my friend, so don´t judge too early about the people.

You say that a friend of you had a original BII and now he dont have and you say too that no one know exactly who BII could have been.
Well, Who your friend knows the one he had was a real one?.

The circumstances of the finding of this special helmet were as followed:

It was dug-find in West-Berlin area in the early 80s with a pile of 7 "normal" Wehrmacht-helmets. West-Berlin - altough very near to the East-German border (exactly: surrounded by the DDR) was a place were no East German border guard was allowed to come. East German helmets were not common in this area at this time! And even they would have been: how should a postwar helmet come in the middle of a pile of Wehrmacht helmets?
Also, my friend had taken the opportunity to examine the helmet closer and to view it side by side with a East-German helmet after 1990.

The differences were more than obvious! It was a real BII and altough I never saw it in real life, because it was already sold to France when I learned to know my friend, he was able make some very solid statements about the helmet and the ebay helmet.

The woman sold it, I can confirm is a lady and about the form of sell it I can say much thing.

First: She sold it only in German (why dont put it in all the world to sell so much millions of people could see it to won bid?).
Second: If you know the sistem in ebay auctions you know if you put a photograph at the searches you have much more posibilitys people see your item (well she dont put nothing at all of that).
The advertisement was the cheapest sistem in ebay, she dont like to spend money in something that all people out of this world of collectionism dont pay more than 20 / 30 Euros.
Third: Is very simple to know in wich part of ebay put the advertaisement helmet = military or not?. perhaps was better put it in electronic or in cars ???.
Four: BII (is normal she put this in the advertise is what was stamped in the helmet.
Fifth: If I like to sell something like this and know how much money it can cost probably I put much more pictures than 2 (and very bad made) I'm sure I could put about 10 as minimum.
Six: Member ebay from 2.003 and never sell nothing about millitaria hum hum only skirts , trousers , love books and love compat discs hum hum.
I say that as a original helmet smell and ebay seller smell too.

The following statements are pure speculation, I am not saying, the seller tricked you or something else, which would bring a bad reputation to the seller! I want to state this clear!! Pure fiction.

But let´s spin around and answer your points:

First: every collector of German militaria should have German ebay on his viewing plan. The seller knew this. It was enough. He/She could be sure that this piece was discussed in every bigger collecting forum all around the world.
If it wouldn`t be discussed, the seller would have started a thread by himself/herself. It is easy to spread the word in times of internet..
Second: to make the impression "Don´t know how much money can be earned, I trade other stuff. Military is not my field..". Also: see above: it was enough. The seller was sure, that this helmet will find its way in the helmet collecting scene with its forums.
Third: Helmets are not only for military. It could be seen in "old clothes", "old branches of jobs (I don´t know the english version, but in german ebay, it exists) or something else. And it was auctioned in the correct sub-category, altough the seller states, that he/she has no clue about it! It could have been a postwar helmet from the early 50s, too! But no - only one category: the correct one!
Four: all right, it is stamped in the helmet. But in the other auctions she started, not every label was clearly described. The auction text could have also been "Old steelhelmet, I don´t know. " Nothing more.
Five: If I would sell something I wouldn´t know and I would not expect big money from it, I would bring exactly these two lousy pics. And when I was asked to send further pix, I would bring exactly the pics, the seller sended: bad light, but enough to get the buyer fixed on.
Six: of course not. The account was a real discount with a lady who makes house cleanings or fleemarket articles. But it is not said, that the seller was really the lady or her friend, husband, son, cousin, etc.

Have you ever taken a map a looked, where "Mariaposching, Deutschland", the homeplace, the seller gave, is located? You will find it in Bavaria, near the border to the CSFR. A little bit away from Berlin or Thale, isn´t it?
And how does this helmet came to this place? With the grandfather on his way back from war captivity? You can´t think this. Even if it would have been allowed - which it was not! - to keep the steelhelmet, I would have thrown it away as far as I could and better walk without a steelhelmet the long way to bavaria from the russian POW-camp through the US-zone of Germany.

Again: I would wish you from the deepest of my heart, that this helmet was real! If it ever turns out that it is real, I am the first to feel happy with you.
But it is only my opinion: I wouldn´t want it in my collection.

[heinkan]

... because it was already sold to France when I learned to know my friend...

This one?

http://mipierru.club.fr/casqueproto44_45.html

(Page only works with Microsoft Internet Explorer!)


I´m sorry, in the last years there were more than 50 persons who had a BII in their collection... I don´t believe anyone is real! Even not the one, your friend maybe had.
Especially not if it´s the one in the link above!

[paracaidista]

Well, first of all say that when I say your friend could or could not have a real original BII helmet, I am not judge noone only I asked you about it.

Rest of your comments I can say more about it this afternoon now I´m going to a friend of mine home that perhaps can give me more light in this. I use to see with him my new buy helmets to know his opinions.

Late afternoon I can spoke about it.

And please dont get angry with my words, I put here the helmet only to discuss about it and to aport if I can something and for the rest of people aport me something. No more.

Well today afternoon I will come back and say what this man say about that.

He have a very good collection Spanish helmet (civil war era) and in my point of view is a great collector.

[Ralph P]

Hello all - It is good to see a very good and interesting discussion about the helmet and hope all will find their answers to the questions that are being asked in this thread.

But always remember when you all are discussing about this helmet or any other items. That this forum is for everyone to make constructive comments. I will not tolerate any verbal bantering, baiting or abuse from any forum member. There is a alot of members on the DDR forum who very much enjoy coming here and they for sure enjoy reading what other members have to say.

Thanks...

[Jägermeister]

This one?

http://mipierru.club.fr/casqueproto44_45.html

(Page only works with Microsoft Internet Explorer!)


I´m sorry, in the last years there were more than 50 persons who had a BII in their collection... I don´t believe anyone is real! Even not the one, your friend maybe had.
Especially not if it´s the one in the link above!

You are absolut right to be careful in this hobby and I am really looking forward to your input.

Thank you for the link, I was aware of this link and knew the pics from this helmet. It was not the example of my friend, we talked about this piece, too, when I asked him about the actual helmet from ebay.

Well, first of all say that when I say your friend could or could not have a real original BII helmet, I am not judge noone only I asked you about it.

Rest of your comments I can say more about it this afternoon now I´m going to a friend of mine home that perhaps can give me more light in this. I use to see with him my new buy helmets to know his opinions.

Late afternoon I can spoke about it.

And please dont get angry with my words, I put here the helmet only to discuss about it and to aport if I can something and for the rest of people aport me something. No more.

Well today afternoon I will come back and say what this man say about that.

He have a very good collection Spanish helmet (civil war era) and in my point of view is a great collector.

I am really looking forward to your answer and enjoy this discussion very much!

And again: I really hope, that I or my friend are wrong and your helmet is a genuine BII. I don´t want to talk a good thing bad.

Hello all - It is good to see a very good and interesting discussion about the helmet and hope all will find their answers to the questions that are being asked in this thread.

But always remember when you all are discussing about this helmet or any other items. That this forum is for everyone to make constructive comments. I will not tolerate any verbal bantering, baiting or abuse from any forum member. There is a alot of members on the DDR forum who very much enjoy coming here and they for sure enjoy reading what other members have to say.

Thanks...

Thank you for your advice! I enjoy this topic much and would like to discuss this here - perhaps we will find the answer to this mystery. I felt every comment done here very constructive and I hope that my small contributions are taken as constructive comments, too.

The last thing I would want is make other members angry or sad.

[Brian Ice]

This is my understanding of the subject helmet, and my understanding of Baer's work on the protoype project. I could of course be completely mistaken.


This helmet has completely different markings that the one I have. (Mine has only a '50' mark at the rear).

I suspect that the one I have is a ET manufactured prototype and that the Baer photos show this model. I believe it's manufacture date is 1944.

But there seems to have been another batch of prototypes (the first batch) made by Volklingen Stahlwerke. (Baer p.383). I don't know exactly when during the 1939-1944 prototype program they were made, but I do know that the results of the ballistics tests was forwarded in 1942 to the Army Weapons office. (p.383).

I believe this first batch consisted of B, B/II, and C prototypes.

I think paracaidista's helmet may be from the first batch of B/IIs produced by Volklingen Stahlwerke sometime prior to 1942.

The liner installed in this first batch I think was the Dr. Hansel liner, p.389.
I would think that these liners were installed in most if not all of these first prototype shells, as ballistics tests involved using helmeted cadaver heads.

It would not surprise me that the first batch of B/IIs had different markings because they were made by a different company. Yes the waffenamt marking is unusual on a helmet, but then again the entire helmet is unusual.

(again, my understanding) After ballistics tests had been completed on this first batch, and the B and B/II designs proven superior and selected for ongoing testing, was when I believe that ET was contracted to produce 50 each of the B and B/II helmets (with M44 liner). I believe my helmet was from this second batch of B/IIs and probably the helmet in Baer's photos. I believe these were produced in 1944 and used for field testing.

I think it likely that the B and B/II helmets presented to Hitler for approval came from the ET production.


Concerning the undamaged Volklingen B, B/II, and C prototypes (first batch) that were not ballistically tested, I think (my opinion again) that these had their Dr. Hansel liners replaced with the M44 liner, as it was superior. These reworked first batch prototypes (B, B/II, C) would have joined the newly produced (ET-B, B/II, THALE) prototypes for ongoing troop testing.

The reason I say this, is that the C prototype was rejected after a short test at the Doberitz Infantry School. That would mean that some of the first batch (B, B/II, C) had survived to be used in the troop testing.