RE: DDR NVA Honor (Parade) Daggers

[olivyaya]

Yes, it is serial # ! Can one identify the production year from that # ??

[Mike G.]

Yes, it is serial # ! Can one identify the production year from that # ??

I would venture to say yes, you could determine the production year of the blade from the serial number. But quite honestly, I'm not sure of the process. Maybe one of the very knowledgeable German Collectors that sell the high end East German memorabilia would know more about this aspect of the Honor Daggers? I would think the serial number would be a means by which to determine the year the blade at least, was produced.

I have four General Officer Daggers that I presume are of 80s vintage.

I have one Regular Officer Dagger I presume is of 70s/80s vintage.

I have two very early 60s vintage Daggers; both Regular Officer - one NVA Grenz/Army/Air Force and the other, Volksmarine.

The Flag Officer (General/Admiral) Honor Daggers (with the exception of the Grenz Honor Dagger) all have 3 digit serial numbers and no maker's mark. My research revealed the Flag Officer Honor Dagger Blades were not engraved with a Maker's Mark.

Flag Officer Honor Daggers:
a). Volksmarine: SN: 396
b). NVA Army: SN: 336
c). Air Force: SN: 255
d). Grenztruppen: SN: 0166

Regular Officer Honor Daggers: 60s era
These have translucent marbled handles.
e). Volksmarine: SN: 20440 (Triangular Makers Mark on reverse of blade)
f). NVA Army: SN: 64893 (Triangular Makers Mark on reverse of blade)

Regular Officer Honor Dagger: 70s/80s era
g). NVA Army: SN: 520
Note: This one has a Maker's Mark in front of the serial number instead of on the reverse of the blade. The mark is not of the more common Triangular shape.

Also, before someone else notes it, to my knowledge there is no way to tell Army/Air Force/Grenztruppen Regular Army Officer Daggers apart from Stasi Regular Officer Honor Daggers. The Hangars were the same for all four military organs of the DDR. The exception was the Volksmarine. Stasi Generals wore the same colour Hangers as did NVA Army Generals.
Maybe Serial Numbers had something to do with differentiating which were Regular NVA Honor Daggers and which were Stasi?
This might be good research material for Ralph.
The Stasi were the only Military Branch within the auspices of the MdI authorized to wear the Honor Dagger.

Olivier,

I have no way of knowing if the above will help. I know not all early vintage daggers had marbled handles. Some were solid. However, the color of these handles generally are of a more opaque orange colour and are seemless, where the 80s era handles are of a very white colour. Also, the 70s/80s era Honor Dagger handles have a visible "Mold Seem" along one side. The handles of the 60s era Honor Daggers do not. So that might be one way for you to ascertain if the handle is of 80s era production.

If there is a Triangular Maker's Mark on the blade side opposite the Serial Number, then I suspect the blade is of 60s era production.

However, If the Maker's Mark is of the type that appears on the Serial Number side of the blade, and is positioned in front of the Serial Number, then it probably is a 70s/80s era production blade, and all components are original to one another.

Hope my response is not too convoluted to be of help.

[torstenbel]

Michael, wow...I will need to keep a copy of this thread for when I receive my dagger... Cheers, Torsten.

[Mike G.]

Hi Torsten,

Maybe you can contact some of your former East German friends to help with understanding the Serial Number situation. I'm sure the serial numbers are a key to when the blade at least, if not the entire Dagger, was produced. But I don't know anything more on this. It just seems logical this would be so.

[torstenbel]

well, most of the ones on the other forum I mentioned to you did actually graduate, so they did also get their daggers...but I can assure you that if I asked them about the serial numbers on their daggers, they would declare me mad and they would probably ignore any other comments/requests made by me... ...if you know what I mean..??..Cheers, Torsten

Hi Torsten,

Maybe you can contact some of your former East German friends to help with understanding the Serial Number situation. I'm sure the serial numbers are a key to when the blade at least, if not the entire Dagger, was produced. But I don't know anything more on this. It just seems logical this would be so.

[Mike G.]

Hi Torsten,

Actually, I was thinking one of you're former NVA Officer friends might know a contact that worked with, or knows someone affiliiated with the Quartermaster side of the NVA, that possibly would know something about the serial numbers, or a manual or document to which reference can be made, that would shed light on serial number "Groupings" so that some correlation between date of production and issue could be discerned?

I doubt an individual officer in possession of one of these daggers would know any more about them than do we at present. Quite possibly less. I know I didn't give much thought to any of my U.S. issue clothing, medals and accessories. For example, I'm sure there are non-American collectors of U.S. Army memorabilia out there who know 100 times more about my military uniform and the accoutrements on it than I will ever know.

This already happened to me on another forum.

[Ralph P]

Hello All...

Mike...I hope to answer your posted STASI question what you and the other members are discussing.

Background:
I own a STASI dagger that I bought many years ago with a STASI grouping. The STASI member was a MAJOR and the MAJOR was not a member of the uniform branch of the Wach Regiment.

Dagger description:
1. The handle is a translucent marble color.
2. The handle color is silver.
3. The handle pommel has a hammered appearance.
4. Makers Mark on the blade is triangle in shape and has two smaller objects outside the one larger object, but within the triangle. (refer to post 12 of this thread for the makers mark.)
5. Serial number on the other side of the blade is 82188.

I by far am no expert on daggers, but I hope this helps in the ongoing discussion.

[Mike G.]

Hi Ralph,

It does. Your Dagger is clearly 60s era. And the description you provided supports the observation the Stasi wore the Honor Dagger and Hangar of the LSK ground forces.

I recall that certain articles of military clothing, badges, medals etc. were reserved for Stasi and marked one way or another accordingly. They did this for example with the Fallschirmjager badges of post 1973 production. The Hangars, which are numbered, actually had specific numbers assigned to them that were reserved for Stasi only.

So it occurred to me that it was quite possible that certain production runs of the Honor Dagger might be controlled similarly, and perhaps specific Serial Numbered Production Groups were reserved for Stasi? Given the size of this organization, it would not surprise me if that were so.

Ralph,

Thanks for posting the additional information to this thread. If you should by chance come along additional information relevant to this question, please do not hesitate to update the thread.

[torstenbel]

aha...fair enough...I did not think of it that way...most of the members on the other forum are former members of Sektion 08 of the OHS (Nachrichtentruppen - Signals) and they would know nothing about this...however at the OHS Zittau we also had the Sektion 06 (I think it was 06) of the RD - Rueckwaertige Dienste (basically the quarter master type officers) being educated and I could see if I can get to talk to one of them on the forum...but the only one that I have encountered on the forum so far did a specialisation in transport...I do not think that these guys would have had any training on any serial numbers or anything like that or that there would have been DV's about this kind of subject...but I'll try and see what there is.... Cheers, Torsten.

PS: If anyone is interested, I was in Sektion 04 (Artillery) at the OHS.

Hi Torsten,

Actually, I was thinking one of you're former NVA Officer friends might know a contact that worked with, or knows someone affiliiated with the Quartermaster side of the NVA, that possibly would know something about the serial numbers, or a manual or document to which reference can be made, that would shed light on serial number "Groupings" so that some correlation between date of production and issue could be discerned?

I doubt an individual officer in possession of one of these daggers would know any more about them than do we at present. Quite possibly less. I know I didn't give much thought to any of my U.S. issue clothing, medals and accessories. For example, I'm sure there are non-American collectors of U.S. Army memorabilia out there who know 100 times more about my military uniform and the accoutrements on it than I will ever know.

This already happened to me on another forum.

[Ralph P]

Hey Mike...Give me some time and let me see if I have any close up photos of daggers being worn by STASI members.

Hi Ralph,

It does. Your Dagger is clearly 60s era. And the description you provided supports the observation the Stasi wore the Honor Dagger and Hangar of the LSK ground forces.

I recall that certain articles of military clothing, badges, medals etc. were reserved for Stasi and marked one way or another accordingly. They did this for example with the Fallschirmjager badges of post 1973 production. The Hangars, which are numbered, actually had specific numbers assigned to them that were reserved for Stasi only.

So it occurred to me that it was quite possible that certain production runs of the Honor Dagger might be controlled similarly, and perhaps specific Serial Numbered Production Groups were reserved for Stasi? Given the size of this organization, it would not surprise me if that were so.

Ralph,

Thanks for posting the additional information to this thread. If you should by chance come along additional information relevant to this question, please do not hesitate to update the thread.

[Thälmannpionier]

another addition for the Collection

early NVA Navy Dagger

[Thälmannpionier]

1

[Thälmannpionier]

btw,did the Navy Daggers also exist with a 3 hole Hanger??

[redjames2004]

Re:early Volksmarine officer dagger

Hello Andreas, Yes, the early Navy officer dagger hangers with 3 holes do exists! I personally handled a early Volksmarine officer dagger which came with a 3-hole hanger which was in my close friend's personal collection. I am looking for early Volksmarine officer dagger with 3-hole hanger for a while. The early Volksmarine officer dagger from early 1960s are tough to find! You just expanded your East German dagger collection with this early Navy dagger!! Thanks,James

[Thälmannpionier]

Hello Andreas, Yes, the early Navy officer dagger hangers with 3 holes do exists! I personally handled a early Volksmarine officer dagger which came with a 3-hole hanger which was in my close friend's personal collection. I am looking for early Volksmarine officer dagger with 3-hole hanger for a while. The early Volksmarine officer dagger from early 1960s are tough to find! You just expanded your East German dagger collection with this early Navy dagger!! Thanks,James

Hello James,
Thank you for your comments & Info
Is there a Date/Timeframe when the Volksmarine changed the 3-Hole Hangers to 1-Hole Hangers?I do remember to have even seen a 2-Hole Hanger once here on the Forum but can't find this Thread anymore.
Regards
Andreas