Hauptfeldwebel

[RedBaran11]

Get Lothar's book. You won't regret it

[RedBaran11]

Btw, I have some pictures of a Grenztruppen Faenriche with the sleeve tress if it will be of any use?

[Mike G.]

No, not really.

I already posted a picture of one in another thread where the issue was whether or not the tress went above or below the Grenztruppen cuff band. And someone already made reference to it again on this thread.

Photos of Faehnrich with "Der Spiess" cuff bands are quite easy to find. Kevin even managed to find one of a Navy Faehnrich.

The picture I'm interested in is an NCO Hauptfeldwebel wearing the "Der Spiess" Tress. That is the one that has thus far eluded me.

[Kartofelpreußer]

The picture I'm interested in is an NCO Hauptfeldwebel wearing the "Der Spiess" Tress. That is the one that has thus far eluded me.

One of the problems causing confusion in this thread (at least for me!) seems to be terminology... I don't know with precision what was used in the NVA/GT, but here is my understanding of the terms:

Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel, and Stabsfeldwebel are ascending ranks given to NCOs in the East German Military. Fähnrich, Oberfähnrich, Stabsfähnrich, and Stabsoberfähnrich are ranks given to warrant officers.

Hauptfeldwebel = "Der Spieß": This is the master sergeant position that has been explained so thoroughly which, again, is a position and not a rank. My understanding is that A Stabsfeldwebel can be a Hauptfeldwebel, and an Oberfähnrich can also be a Hauptfeldwebel. Whether you're an NCO or a WO, you are the Hauptfeldwebel. Both are also "Der Spieß" (but never to his face).

So the issue here is that there are plenty of examples, both in photographs and surviving uniforms, of Hauptfeldwebeln of warrant officer rank (Fähnrich, Oberfähnrich, Stabsfähnrich, and Stabsoberfähnrich). What seems to be in short supply is solid evidence of NCO ranks (Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel, and Stabsfeldwebel). Matteo cogently presented a possible explanation for this, and other members have posted knowledge of legitimate NCO uniforms with Hauptfeldwebel Tresse, but I have yet to see a picture posted on this thread.

Is this a fair assessment of the discussion as it stands?

[Mike G.]

Spot on.

I'm not questioning whether or not NCOs in the Grenztruppen fulfilled this position. I am certain they did. I cannot find evidence the one's fulfilling this position wore the "Der Spiess" tress on the sleeves of their parade tunic. I am looking for photographic evidence of this. I suspect they did, but where are they?

[Dag]

Hauptfeldwebel = "Der Spieß": This is the master sergeant position that has been explained so thoroughly which, again, is a position and not a rank. My understanding is that A Stabsfeldwebel can be a Hauptfeldwebel, and an Oberfähnrich can also be a Hauptfeldwebel. Whether you're an NCO or a WO, you are the Hauptfeldwebel. Both are also "Der Spieß" (but never to his face).

The lowest ranked long-term NCO I have experiencedbeing Hauptfeldwebel in a tank company was Feldwebel.
Before he took over, a short term NCO(!) was Hauptfeldwebel (with the rank of Unterfeldwebel).

And the highest-ranking Hauptfeldwebel I ever came across was Stabsfeldwebel.

[Mike G.]

Dag,

Do you by chance know how it came to be that Faehnriche fulfilling the position of "Der Spiess" also were called Hauptfeldwebel? This term when applied to a Faehnriche seems inappropriate, since Feldwebel is an NCO rank.

It seems to me a more appropriate term for a Faehnriche fulfilling the "Der Spiess" position would have been Meister.

[iannima]

Right... Does this help?



http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Bernhard describes it as "never worn" but that is a bit difficult to interpret as mint as surely the Hauptfeldewebel tresse would not have been added at the factory. On the other hand it was produced very late in the DDR, 1989, so perhaps whilst issued to a specific person, it never got a chance of actually being worn.
I appreciate that this does not constitute a 'conclusive' proof of anything, but all those who have dealt with Bernhard before will know that his having doctored the tunic is out of the question. He might have added the shoulder boards but certainly not sewn in all the Tresse at the collar and sleeves.
It would be better if we knew the source or we could see a period photograph... but this is what I have stumbled upon and for the little that it might be worth, I offer it to the public debate

[Rev462]

"Bernhard describes it as "never worn" but that is a bit difficult to interpret as mint as surely the Hauptfeldewebel tresse would not have been added at the factory. "

Matteo,

Do you think it possible that the Der Spiess tresse could have been applied at the factory (at least in some cases) to have on hand to supply the current stock of those serving as Hauptfeldwebel?

What I'm getting at is this: in any given unit, there must have been a more or less constant number of Hauptfeldwebels, even though the actual individuals serving that position rotated in and out. Given the demands of wear, tear and age on a tunic, I'd think that a unit would want to have some number of tunics in reserve to accomodate new individauls coming in or as quick replacements in case you spilled spaghetti sauce on your uniform the day before the big parade.

Just a hypothetical scenario. I think it's plausible but then again, having never served in the NVA, I have no idea how close to reality it may be.

[iannima]

Do you think it possible that the Der Spiess tresse could have been applied at the factory ?

Like you, I have absolutely no idea but my guess would be that it sounds unlikely. As we have said at several stages in this thread, the Hauptfeldewebel was a function and not a rank. That they would have made provisions at the factory for something like this sounds very odd. My personal feeling indeed is that on a tunic like this, evidence of manumission at the sleeves is bound to be found even if 100% genuine. Perhaps our veterans can comment on whether there was a regimental tailor or something like that for such changes. Or was it all done by the faithful wives with needle and patience...

[Mike G.]

Interesting.

Conspicuously absent are the Career Chevrons that should be on the right sleeve.

I guess this will have to do until a period photograph of it in actual wear appears.

[iannima]

Conspicuously absent are the Career Chevrons that should be on the right sleeve.

I thought the double chevron had been discontinued around 1983, so this being a 1989 tunic, its absence is consistent.

[Rev462]

Matteo,

You are correct. The career chevron was discontinued in 1983/84.

[Mike G.]

Matteo and Rick, you are both absolutely correct.

It was the "single" wimpel Aermelabzeichen (Soldat und Unteroffizer auf Zeit) that continued thru 1989, at least for the MfS. It continued all the way thru 90 for the NVA Army.

Thanks for pointing that out.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Rick,

Would you mind posting your Dark Collar Dienst Signal's Hauptfeldwebel Tunic with Der Spiess cuff bands, here on this thread?

Firstly it fits in with the theme/ topic;
and secondly and far more importantly, it apparently dispels a misconception that the Der Spiess Cuff Bands were worn only on Parade Tunics.

Clearly your Tunic example serves to show this not to be true, and that the Der Spiess Cuff bands were indeed also worn on Hauptfeldwebel Service Tunics - at least during the dark collar era.

Thanks,

[Rev462]

Mike,

No problem. The tunic is actually Artillery, but you are correct that Der Spiess cuff tresse was not restricted to just parade tunics.

This tunic is the 2nd pattern, unpiped wooly service tunic, dated 1962. I also posted this tunic over at the "Sleeve Patches" thread, so some of you may have already seen this.