Majority OF Eastern Germans Believe life was better under Communism

[AR-11]

Well, let me tell some facts as one, who lived at "both sides" of Germany:

20 years after the reunion:
- The government wanted to give every young family a Kindergarten or Kindergrippe-place for the kids. The GDR had it.
- The school years will be shortened to 12 years max. (from today 13 years)- The GDR had it.
- The formulations for the school-examinations are made by the federal-ministry (no longer by the schools for themselves). In the GDR that was normal.

Only three points to show, how it is here with the "learning from the East". And how long it last...

And one point, not to forget: the Ministry for the interior is allowed to watch your PC, e-mail, online-activities and listen to your phone... THAT we had too in the GDR...

My English is not good enough to following this discussion in every nuance. But, as one who lives still in Germany, I fully agree with the things, Dag and Torsten wrote. But, nevertheless, all is looking quite a little different from "inside" here...

AR-11

[Dag]

Dag, there is no need to go into these things again and at great lengths ... we have both tried unsuccessfully in the past to bring across why life was not all bad in the DDR and that there are a lot of things that were better than life now BUT 'outsiders' are either not able to understand what we are trying to say or do not want to understand it, as it does not fit in with their own upbringing and education about what life in east germany should have been like. We (Dag and I and the majority of former East Germans) are evidently not able to look at the past rationally and are not able to differentiate between what really happened and what we believe happened in our youthful enthusiasm/nostalgia teinted view of our former lives ...

don't mean to upset anyone else who posted here with my comments, but I do feel rather strongly about this and I am very surprised by the continueing dismissive comments about what we, and the majority of former east germans (see the survey), are trying to tell you guys about life in the DDR.

Cheers, Torsten.

Torsten, I know.
I just thought I give it one last try because I still belive that people are able to change their views.
However, it will be the last time.

Dag

[ehrentitle]

I have to say that my opinion of the DDR has changed in recent years. I used to think of it as a monolithic part of the Soviet communist empire and Warsaw Pact no different socially and politically than Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. I know now that it's more complicated than that and the contradictions of good and bad within the DDR society are what make studying its history more interesting to me.

As Torsten has pointed out not everything was bad. Unfortunately human nature is such that the worst things always make the most sensational headlines and good news stories are often forgotten and discarded. Because of this the excesses of the Stasi and SED as well as the shoot to kill orders to the Grenztruppen, these will continue to be the first thing that Westerners think about the former DDR. Forgotten is the everyday life in the DDR that included a closer sense of community, promotion of child-friendly and women friendly policies and the sense of responsibility for others.

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

This is my first post here and I am very impressed with the debate and the fact that politics is allowed here.

I have friends both sides of the wire so to speak and remember trying to make the East German Border Gaurds laugh, I think that we were lucky once proving they were people just like us, not as we had been briefed.

That aside the WP failed as it is not possible to fund a comfortable existance for everyone regardless of their input which is what the pals on the East side constantly complain about (it was cheaper, I had a job, etc) Sure in the West most are destined for modest existance as I have had but what the hell I could have made more of myself.

I think politics to some degree is a fashion fixed in time and space. Just after the War NAZIs (an allied lable) were not to be found yet up to 39 most in Germany were and just fitted in, that or playing a dangerous game!

No I'm sure that most in the East were fairly happy as we in the West but time marches on. Good and bad everywhere etc. We are just fortunate the the cold war was not fought at least not in Europe.

God I wish I'd gone to school more often then I would be able to make a better contribution.

Regards

Jock

[bobofthedesert]

Here is another article related to this topic...

Easterners unhappy with reunification
The Local
Published: 21 Jul 09 15:29 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090721-20729.html

Almost a quarter of Germans from what was communist East Germany feel they are the losers of reunification, according to a new study for social welfare group Volkssolidarität released on Tuesday.

The survey, looking at the views of easterners some 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, found that while 25 percent felt like proper German citizen, some 10 percent of Ossis said they would prefer to have back the communist dictatorship of the German Democratic Republic (GDR).

Conducted by the Social Studies Research Institute of Berlin-Brandenburg, the study asked 1,900 people from eastern German states to assess their current social situation compared to before reunification.

The president of the eastern social welfare organisation Volkssolidarität, Dr. Gunnar Winkler, noted that the expectations of eastern Germans have mostly been met two decades on. Many enjoy a higher standard of living and most appreciate greater freedom. However, one indicator shows there is still much to be done to integrate the two halves of Germany.

“Only 32 percent of easterns Germans evaluated their economic situation in 2009 as good. In 1990, approximately 47 percent said the same,” Winkler said, adding that more than half of those asked believed they will be worse off in five years.

“Many pointed to the continued reforms of social policy – with cuts deeply affecting the lives of citizens – as responsible for the fact that contentment, hopes and expectations have ebbed since 2000,” he said.

Half of those surveyed said they still see differences between the east and west that were so drastically cut off from each other in 1961 as the Wall was built. Only 19 percent saw little to no difference from one part of the country to the other.

People who were younger, college educated or had higer incomes were most likely to be happy with the changes the former GDR territories have seen in the last 20 years. But more than half of those who were unemployed were unhappy with the reforms.

The survey also found that attitudes towards immigrants remain shockingly negative among former East Germans. Only two percent of the population of the former eastern states is made up by non-Germans, yet 40 percent of those asked don't want immigrants as neighbours. This attitude persists, despite many Ossis themselves still feeling like outsiders, added Winkler.

However, those feelings might be unfounded. Another survey done by the Forsa Institute found that more Germans from the former West Germany are shedding old prejudices and want to learn social values from the easterners. Half of western Germans hold particularly eastern German values such as a sense of community, promoting a child-friendly society and willingness to help others as exemplary.

Overall, the survey found that those under age 35 were much more open to their Ossi counterparts, while those over 55 weren't. More than 35 percent of western Germans under the age of 35 thought there was more to be learned from their eastern neighbours, while only 19 percent of those over the age of 55 felt the same way.

Forsa surveyed 1,000 people across the country on behalf of the Berlin strategic institute Diffferent.

Germany was divided for almost 50 years. Why would the effects of that be erased after only 20? Revisit this subject in another 30 years......

And to tell you the truth, I am not completely sad that the former GDR is mainly for Germans. Kind of ironic that it works out that way, whereas you can walk around in some neighborhoods in the former West Berlin and not see a German for a while....there's nothing wrong with having people from other countries and cultures live in your country, but to the point where they are taking the place over doesn't seem very far sighted......

[grenzflieger]

And to tell you the truth, I am not completely sad that the former GDR is mainly for Germans. Kind of ironic that it works out that way, whereas you can walk around in some neighborhoods in the former West Berlin and not see a German for a while....there's nothing wrong with having people from other countries and cultures live in your country, but to the point where they are taking the place over doesn't seem very far sighted......

The migrants are germans and it's their country Most of them have got the german nationality. There are a lot of different cultures in especially west-berlin because during the cold war a lot of germans wanted to leave west-berlin. The BRD gouvernment encouraged especially Turkisch migrants to live there to prevent the city to be almost abandoned. Nowadays you can see a lot of Turkisch migrants in Kreuzberg and also in other parts of Berlin. Without these migrants the history of Berlin could have been different in a negative way from the western perspective.

[Mike G.]

Torsten, Dag and Dirk

Please at no point ever think your introspective points made to this thread, and countless other points shared by each of you in the past on the DDR WAF Sub-forum are of no value and do not count.

The one glaring and obvious trade mark that separates the DDR Forum from almost all others on the WAF is that we have you guys, and a few others that lived in the very country about which this particular Forum's subject matter is devoted.

A second remarkable and very noteworthy observation about our Forum is that we, unlike others participating on the other Sub-forums of which the WAF is comprised, get along peacefully and have no problems exchanging dialogue with one another - even the politics of West and East Germany.

This Forum is without question comprised of a group of people that are very educated, and to a degree, better traveled perhaps than the people on the other Sub-forums, and therefore more open to discussion and exchange of ideas, even when somewhat diametrically opposed.

I very much enjoy and am appreciative of the personal knowledge and experience shared by our former East German membership with the "Collective Community" of the DDR Forum.

Their presence and contribution have made the WAF DDR Forum a true source and compilation of historical information based not upon conjecture, but absolutes that are formulated by the sharing of personal experience and knowledge, which we forum members are extremely fortunate and priviledged to have access to.

I personally can never thank any of you enough for being a part of this Forum and for sharing your insights, knowledge and experience. It has without question made this Forum the absolute definitive source for reference and research material on the former DDR not only for the Military inclined collector, but also anyone just interested in the former DDR in general. If your willingness to contribute to the forum does not wane, and this Forum is able to recruit even more former East German citizens willing to participate on the forum, the DDR Forum will eventually evolve into the "Bible" for the DDR. Of that I have no doubt.

Torsten,

I am in total disagreement with you that the contributions you and your colleagues have made fall on deft ears. That is as far from the truth as the moon is from the front door of my house. We all are by virtue of our cultural and political background going to harbor some bias toward that, which we were taught our whole life, is or was the opposite of what we believe. That is normal. But we can also choose to set some of our bias aside and be open to cultural and intellectual exchange of ideas and experiences, and look toward the good that existed in each society also.

Torsten,

Consider this. Despite your misgivings and feelings pursuant many of us on this forum, one thing that has to be aknowledged is that many of us, yourself included, were former military. In that context you cannot deny that when you served, and in the time that you served, were conditions to have eroded and deteriated to the point where there was an actual military confrontation between East and West, you would not have hesitated to put a bullet in my head. That is an undeniable fact and the same is true for me. That however was then, and this is now.

I count myself fortunate to have among the very few friends that currently exist in my life, you, Dag and Dirk. I have met Dag and Dirk and look very much forward to meeting up with each of them again in the future. When we last met, our conversation had absolutely nothing to do with the military. I was only interested in establishing what I hope proves to be an ever lasting bond of friendship. We mostly talked about our personal lives and East Germany, which was where we met up. Our visit was in what formerly was East Berlin.

For me personally, there are two destinct sides - civilian and military. My entire military career except for the few last years was devoted to the destruction of communism. I was literally a lean mean green fighting machine, and I make no excuses for it. And you guys are not expected to make excuses for your military careers and devotion to your country. I think it can be agreed we all served proudly and are all proud of the country from which we came. I personally cannot change my political perception any more than can you, and it should never be expected of either of any of us that we do.

However, I certainly now that it all is over, am open to embrace the culture of what one time was my enemy, and to establish a friendship with both the country and its people.

I had ample opportunity to visit what formerly was East Berlin and East Germany back during a time in history that will always for me be remembered as the "Cold War". I have commented time and again on this forum that one of the aspects of life in East Germany that I admired, was the slow pace of life that permitted the people of East Germany to formulate personal bonds and friendships, that the very much faster pace of life in the US made difficult, if not impossible. Clearly there were aspects of East German culture that were admirable. I recognize this and also recognize that its people for the most part, were proud of their country. That is as it should be.

Torsten,

all that I ask from you is that you understand that once upon a time, I wore a uniform that in many ways, was not unlke the one you wore, and that because I wore that uniform, I was then, and will always be opposed to a certain type of government. That cannot be changed. I never at anytime was opposed to its existence. Just to it filtering over to the country of the uniform I wore. Does that make sense?

And consequently, I perhaps more than others, can accept that it existed and still in some places exists. It may even one day exist in the country in which I am from. Things change. I may even still be alive if and when that occurs. It already is barking at my door. I can only hope if it does happen, Texas dissolves itself and becomes its own country.

I am what I am, as are you, and I also accept and embrace what you are - products of our life long environment. I very much want to meet up with you and engage in some very interesting dialogue with you, preferably over some really good German beer - food. I sincerely think once we meet in person, we will become fast and permanent friends.

Just please accept that while I admire many of the traits that were unique to what formerly was East Germany, the actual system of government is something I cannot accept - and it is a personal choice based upon where I was born and grew up. If I grew up down the street from you in East Germany, I would surely have very different political views. But as for the culture itself, I really admire not just East Germany, but Europe as a whole. I have always preferred the life style of Europe over my own country, and quite frankly, live a part of my life on a daily basis, more akin to the European style, than that of my fellow countrymen. Particularly when it comes to what I eat and drink.

Please keep posting and contributing on the forum .....

We do listen.

Prost, Torsten.

[brathahn]

Hallo,

da mein englisch nicht besonders ist und vieleicht dafür reicht "Guten Abend" und "Auf wiedersehen" zu sagen, schreibe ich lieber gleich auf deutsch.
Vieleicht wäre ja jemand so nett den Text zu übersetzen.
Als (ehemaliger) DDR-Bürger bin ich ja nun von dieser Problematik direkt betroffen und es ist schon wahr, die DDR ist bei uns allgegenwärtig!
Angefangen davon das wir im Osten noch ein weitaus besseres Netz der Kinderbetreuung haben macht sich auch eine gewisse Ost-Mentalität immer weiter breit. Vermutlich liegt es daran das den Leuten im Osten nach 1989 permanent erklärt wurde was sie alles falsch gemacht haben, irgendwann wollen die Menschen das nicht mehr hören und glauben schon gar nicht! Viele besinnen sich auf ihre Herkunft und sind meist sogar stolz darauf aus dem Osten zu kommen, viele fühlen sich auch nicht als Bundesbürger sondern nach wie vor als DDR-Bürger.
Wenn man beispielsweise ein großes ostdeutsches Fahrzeugtreffen besucht wie in Pütnitz wird die "Parade" der Fahrzeuge mit der DDR-Hymne begonnen, gehört nunmal dazu. Vor einigen Jahren hätte man darüber noch den Kopf geschüttelt.
Auch hatte ich vor einiger Zeit Klassentreffen mit meiner alten Schulklasse, viele davon waren im Westen, allerdings haben es die wenigsten dort lange ausgehalten und sind zurück in den Osten, bekommen hier zwar weniger Geld aber sie sind zu Hause, denn Deutschland ist nicht gleich Deutschland. Für viele die ich kenne endet Deutschland in Marienborn und auch ich gebe zu wenn ich aus dem Westen nach Hause fahre bin ich froh hinter Helmstedt über die Brücke in den Osten zu fahren.
Wirklich verstehen wird man das wahrscheinlich erst wenn man hier lebt und täglich mit den Menschen zu tun hat und ihrer DDR die ja eigentlich gar nicht mehr da ist

Gruß Stephan

[AR-11]

Hallo,

da mein englisch nicht besonders ist und vieleicht dafür reicht "Guten Abend" und "Auf wiedersehen" zu sagen, schreibe ich lieber gleich auf deutsch.
Vieleicht wäre ja jemand so nett den Text zu übersetzen.
Als (ehemaliger) DDR-Bürger bin ich ja nun von dieser Problematik direkt betroffen und es ist schon wahr, die DDR ist bei uns allgegenwärtig!
Angefangen davon das wir im Osten noch ein weitaus besseres Netz der Kinderbetreuung haben macht sich auch eine gewisse Ost-Mentalität immer weiter breit. Vermutlich liegt es daran das den Leuten im Osten nach 1989 permanent erklärt wurde was sie alles falsch gemacht haben, irgendwann wollen die Menschen das nicht mehr hören und glauben schon gar nicht! Viele besinnen sich auf ihre Herkunft und sind meist sogar stolz darauf aus dem Osten zu kommen, viele fühlen sich auch nicht als Bundesbürger sondern nach wie vor als DDR-Bürger.
Wenn man beispielsweise ein großes ostdeutsches Fahrzeugtreffen besucht wie in Pütnitz wird die "Parade" der Fahrzeuge mit der DDR-Hymne begonnen, gehört nunmal dazu. Vor einigen Jahren hätte man darüber noch den Kopf geschüttelt.
Auch hatte ich vor einiger Zeit Klassentreffen mit meiner alten Schulklasse, viele davon waren im Westen, allerdings haben es die wenigsten dort lange ausgehalten und sind zurück in den Osten, bekommen hier zwar weniger Geld aber sie sind zu Hause, denn Deutschland ist nicht gleich Deutschland. Für viele die ich kenne endet Deutschland in Marienborn und auch ich gebe zu wenn ich aus dem Westen nach Hause fahre bin ich froh hinter Helmstedt über die Brücke in den Osten zu fahren.
Wirklich verstehen wird man das wahrscheinlich erst wenn man hier lebt und täglich mit den Menschen zu tun hat und ihrer DDR die ja eigentlich gar nicht mehr da ist

Gruß Stephan

Hello,

because my English is not enough and maybe only enough to say "Good evening" and "Bye", so I prefer to write in German.
Perhaps someone would be so kind to translate the text.
As a (former) GDR citizen I am now directly affected by this problem and it is true, the GDR is omnipresent here!
Starting like this that we in the East still have a much better network of child care, there is also a certain East-mentality increasingly broad. Presumably it is because the people in the East after 1989 was declared permanently, everything that they have done wrong. Sometime the people don´t want to hear it no more, and believe even less! Many reflect on their origins and are even proud to be from the East. Many feel even not as a “Federal-German citizen” but still as a GDR citizen. For example, if one attend one of the major East- German car meetings, as in Pütnitz, the "parade" of vehicles with the East German anthem started, that has to be so! A few years ago one would have shaking the head about that.
Some time before I had a reunion with my old school-class. Many of them were in the West, but, however, the most of them didn´t have endured it long there and are back in the East. They get less money here, but they are at home, because Germany is not the same as Germany. For many people I know, Germany ends in Marienborn, and also I have to admit: When I come home from the West, I am happy to drive to the East over the bridge behind Helmstedt.
One will really understand this probably when one lives here and has to act daily with the people and their GDR which is no longer there, actually, at all

regards Stephan