Majority OF Eastern Germans Believe life was better under Communism

[torstenbel]

Torsten,

I would like to sit down and drink several good German Beers with you. I just wish your schedule and my schedule would permit this opportunity. I really would very much like to meet up with you one day before we both (me particularly) are too old to do so.

Prost

Hi Mike, I am in Berlin again during next week ... you would not be over for a visit by any chance then?? Cheers, Torsten.

[Greg Collins]

At first, I thought it better that I did not wade into this as (as many of you already know) my politics are decidedly Red and I could take this too personally. So, without getting too involved, I'd like to make a couple of observations here (all my opinion only).

1. Many in the west refer to the "fall of Communism"... what about China, Cuba and Viet Nam? Did I miss something? Note here that I don't group North Korea (DPRK) into this because Communism does not allow for succession based on lineage- this would be Monarchy. Also, Communism is a philosophy- a guiding set of principles- not a government per se. What did fall was the governments of the Warsaw Pact. Communism continues.

2. I believe that the governments based on Communism who did fall had a pretty good first run. Sure there were problems, sure there was corruption but, all in all, it was a good first attempt. How many times have governments based on our style of Democracy driven by Capitalism failed throughout history?

3. I understand why East Germans would miss their government. Freedom from "chasing the holy buck", health care provided by the State (instead of paying the M.D.'s next 18 holes), equitable housing at a reasonable cost- in fact, equitable everything at a reasonable cost, and care at retirement. Basically provided for from the cradle to the grave. Not in the extravagant style shown in the western presses, but in a similar style for all.

4. In speaking with a couple of Russian friends, I have found that one thing they seem to miss the most is the level of respect they had during the USSR years... "when we were a real country". They were- and I believe all vets (and yes, I'm a Navy vet) can agree on this- the only "real" threat we (the US) have ever faced. We knew we'd defeat the 3rd Reich, we knew we'd defeat Japan... the Soviet Union was another matter entirely. Most of us knew that if we ever entered into war with the Soviets, the world would, essentially, be destroyed. We, as the US, were compelled to look at the Warsaw Pact nations as equals, rather than look down upon them.

[ehrentitle]

Like Michael, I too would like to sit down and drink several good German Beers with Torsten and swap a few old soldier war stories from the Cold War days. I imagine Torsten's experiences growing up may not be unsimular to mine, growing up in the rural midwest of the US. I had a good childhood. Everyone I knew had a job, no one was want for basic needs and life was slower paced and far away from national and international politics. However, that was not the case all across the US and I suspect the same can be said of the DDR.

[DonC]

Nostalgia for things long gone is a very human trait that the vast majority of us subscribe to in one form or another. I don't think it necessarily reflects reality, as we all remember "the good old days" while tending to try or want to forget the problems and traumas we faced back then. Great thread!

Don

[Mike G.]

Hi Mike, I am in Berlin again during next week ... you would not be over for a visit by any chance then?? Cheers, Torsten.

Hi Torsten,

My next return to Berlin will be 2010 - either in June or September. Don't know yet. I know your schedule is as hectic as mine, but perhaps we can meet somewhere. Too early now to make plans of course, but as the actual time for departure draws more near, maybe we can link up for some bier and good German food.

[torstenbel]

Hi Mike, I will be Berlin again briefly at the end of August this year to go on to an NVA Officer College re-union in Zittau, but I do not know as yet what I will be doing next summer ... let us know about the dates of your next trip when you know more about it....maybe we can build a DDR Forum school trip around it? I think a little get together in Dresden might be nice ... Cheers, Torsten.

[bobofthedesert]

There are more than a few "West Berliners" and "West Germans" who are also nostalgic for the old days.......

West Berlin when The Wall was up was the coolest place on the planet.......

[torstenbel]

There are more than a few "West Berliners" and "West Germans" who are also nostalgic for the old days.......

West Berlin when The Wall was up was the coolest place on the planet.......

now it's East Berlin ... West Berlin is boring

[Kartofelpreußer]

i have been at pains to try and explain previously that it is not just as 'black and white' as that ... but I think it futile to go into that argument again .. ;-)

I hope I didn't convey the sense of things being "black and white", quite the opposite... I do feel that nostalgia colors everyone's ideas of their past, whether or not they've lived through it. When you talk about the 1950's in America today, all you hear about is the birth of rock and roll, prosperity, consumer choices, and happy intact families. You don't hear much about McCarthyism, fear of nulear war or the overwhelming pressures to confirm to society's norms.

Everything is more complex than portrayed, and history can never transcend perspective. A historian has millions of facts to choose from, and if he (or she) wishes to, he can make the DDR into a police-run dungeon or a worker's happy paradise; America can be a land of opportunity or a heartless place of exploitation. Any such simplifications are udeless, because the realities are much, much more complex than that.

One thing I wll say history tends to show: When times are difficult, people tend to gravitate toward government systems that provide support and security over personal freedom. When things are good, people tend to demand personal freedom and economic opportunity.

I've said before that part of what triggered the events of 1989 was the fact that the DDR was, in relation to the rest of the Soviet bloc, prospering. A significant part of the reason there was so much pressure for the borders to open up was that the East German citizenry had an unprecedented amount of disposable income, and was looking for ways to spend it-- including foreign travel. Had the government been prepared or willing to grant more personal freedom earlier, things might have gone quite differently.

[torstenbel]

don't worry, my outbreak of frustration was not directed at you or your comments, which are quite balanced and well thought through ....

[Dag]

I have thought long and hard if I post something or not but decided to do so.


The article which started this thread indicates surprise that people in the former GDR are not ready to be thankful for what November 89, and finally October 1990, gave them. Worse, a majority thinks it was better before that date.
However, what is different is that the person who is referred to does only have very limited (childhood) experience. And still, he is not dismissing everything as bad.
I will not go into details about the journalism involved (I think it was a New York Times editor who once said that all journalists act like prostitutes). Also I will not question the validity of the survey, let alone if a similar survey was done in the former West Germany.


First of all I would point out that the GDR (or any other socialist country at the time) was not, at any time, ‘communist’. At best, they covered probably max 5% of the way towards communism. This might be irrelevant but should always be remembered.


So, the people think it was better in the GDR:
For, with all respect, 'outsiders' this will be difficult to understand. This problem is increased by the fact that only the ‘outsiders’ view of life is the right one – because people in the (former) GDR were, and maybe still are, not able to see the freedom they suddenly had/have.


The cohesion within the society was much graeter; support for others, friendship, and other values which define a working society were common. The fact that all the basics for a decent life were available to everyone is a fact that cannot be denied. Not just food but also medical care etc.
I still believe that I would not be where I am now had it not been for free medical care, free and very good education and the ability to think freely and voice my opinion. I know that this goes against the view of many people about life in the GDR but it was possible to voice opinions, even critical and very critical views on the situation. Yes, there were definitions in law in regards to activities against the state but that was no secret. As in any other country in the world, when you break the law you will go to court, irrespective of the fact that what you do is permitted in other countries.
Kartoffelpreuße asks about the ‘good ol’ wall’?
What has the wall to do with the life people lived in the GDR? It had a very low impact on my parents or my own life. It was there – that was it! The possibility to travel to western countries would have been nice but at the same time, it would have been financially pretty much impossible. However, this had no impact whatsoever on my upbringing or my view of the world. The opening of the wall did initially not change much for the majority of the people. The changes really came in October 1990.


Maybe you want to ask yourself the following questions to get an idea what happened to the situation of a huge majority of people in the GDR:

1. How does the new legal system work? Will, what I did yesterday, be an offence today?
2. Why do I loose 50% of my savings and will I be able to afford the high prices fro food?
3. Will I be able to afford to pay the school dinner of my children?
4. Can I afford to see the doctor/dentist?
5. Will I be forced to move out of my flat because somebody else bought it?
6. Can I afford to carry on living in my flat or will the costs spiral that much that I have to move out.

Some of you may say that these are questions they ask themselves often. That might be so. But for the majority of people living in the GDR these were questions they had never asked before in 40 years. But they had to when they woke up on October 3^rd 1990.


I really believe that it is impossible for any ‘outsider’ to genuinely understand and comment on the feelings of people who grew up and lived in the GDR. Even those who where posted to (West) Berlin or West Germany can only comment on what they saw as ‘tourists’, i.e. in a limited time frame.


Only people who experienced such a complex change of life are really in a position to compare the now against the past.
That may sound harsh but that is my view.


I know it will sound strange to many and I also know that some people may call me names but even now, after nearly 12 years in the UK, I still believe that there were many things in the GDR which were much better.


The surveillance and intrusion into my private life is much more worrying nowadays than it ever was in the GDR. Because now I will be watched just on the assumption that I may commit a crime in future – and it is all within the law. The erosion of what is called by many ‘freedom’ towards a continuing restriction of freedom is very frightening. Frightening in a way I never felt in the GDR. The interesting thing is, and many people seem to miss the similarities, the fact that it is all done to fight against something, in the current case - terrorism.
The GDR had laws to defend its own state against anyone who worked against the constitution – this was called to be against human rights.
Several significant changes were made in the US constitution against which the laws in the GDR were a joke. And many changes seem to be geared towards its own citizens, especially when it comes to intercepting phone and email traffic.


Finally I would like to point out a few things about ‘communism’:

1. Communism is not a society model but a set of guiding principles – that a different approach was possible was shown by Tito shortly after the end of WW II.
2. Communism does not negate private ownership of houses, cars, etc – something people in the West seem to fear most
3. Communism does not negate competition. It only specifies that the companies must be owned by the people.
4. The period from 1945 to 1990 (or from 1917-1990 in case of the Soviet Union) was very short in historical terms. Considering this and the antagonism between East and West, it was a good result in my opinion. This does not mean that everything was great but I think that people will learn from the past.

One last thing: The current economic crisis is something I feel rather relaxed about. The situation for me is not significantly different to my situation in 1990: Devaluation of my savings, questions about job security, increasing prices and taxation.
It can’t get much worse than it was for me in 1990 – from that perspective it was a good education. Something a lot of (younger) people didn’t get.

[Ingsoc75]

now it's East Berlin ... West Berlin is boring

I noticed this during my visit in 2003. The Kurfürstendamm was dead at night while Mitte was busy.

[torstenbel]

Dag, there is no need to go into these things again and at great lengths ... we have both tried unsuccessfully in the past to bring across why life was not all bad in the DDR and that there are a lot of things that were better than life now BUT 'outsiders' are either not able to understand what we are trying to say or do not want to understand it, as it does not fit in with their own upbringing and education about what life in east germany should have been like. We (Dag and I and the majority of former East Germans) are evidently not able to look at the past rationally and are not able to differentiate between what really happened and what we believe happened in our youthful enthusiasm/nostalgia teinted view of our former lives ...

don't mean to upset anyone else who posted here with my comments, but I do feel rather strongly about this and I am very surprised by the continueing dismissive comments about what we, and the majority of former east germans (see the survey), are trying to tell you guys about life in the DDR.

Cheers, Torsten.

[ehrentitle]

Torsten, Actually I've found this thread quite interesting and refeshing. You have done an excellent job of getting your point across. As long as the conversation is civil and rational everyone should have the opportunity to express their opinions.

The DDR has many nuances and was neither a socialist paradise nor a dark Stalinst gulag...the truth is somewhere in between. If only we could channel all that energy and passion into other aspects of this forum!

[ehrentitle]

Here is another article related to this topic...

Easterners unhappy with reunification
The Local
Published: 21 Jul 09 15:29 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20090721-20729.html

Almost a quarter of Germans from what was communist East Germany feel they are the losers of reunification, according to a new study for social welfare group Volkssolidarität released on Tuesday.

The survey, looking at the views of easterners some 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, found that while 25 percent felt like proper German citizen, some 10 percent of Ossis said they would prefer to have back the communist dictatorship of the German Democratic Republic (GDR).

Conducted by the Social Studies Research Institute of Berlin-Brandenburg, the study asked 1,900 people from eastern German states to assess their current social situation compared to before reunification.

The president of the eastern social welfare organisation Volkssolidarität, Dr. Gunnar Winkler, noted that the expectations of eastern Germans have mostly been met two decades on. Many enjoy a higher standard of living and most appreciate greater freedom. However, one indicator shows there is still much to be done to integrate the two halves of Germany.

“Only 32 percent of easterns Germans evaluated their economic situation in 2009 as good. In 1990, approximately 47 percent said the same,” Winkler said, adding that more than half of those asked believed they will be worse off in five years.

“Many pointed to the continued reforms of social policy – with cuts deeply affecting the lives of citizens – as responsible for the fact that contentment, hopes and expectations have ebbed since 2000,” he said.

Half of those surveyed said they still see differences between the east and west that were so drastically cut off from each other in 1961 as the Wall was built. Only 19 percent saw little to no difference from one part of the country to the other.

People who were younger, college educated or had higer incomes were most likely to be happy with the changes the former GDR territories have seen in the last 20 years. But more than half of those who were unemployed were unhappy with the reforms.

The survey also found that attitudes towards immigrants remain shockingly negative among former East Germans. Only two percent of the population of the former eastern states is made up by non-Germans, yet 40 percent of those asked don't want immigrants as neighbours. This attitude persists, despite many Ossis themselves still feeling like outsiders, added Winkler.

However, those feelings might be unfounded. Another survey done by the Forsa Institute found that more Germans from the former West Germany are shedding old prejudices and want to learn social values from the easterners. Half of western Germans hold particularly eastern German values such as a sense of community, promoting a child-friendly society and willingness to help others as exemplary.

Overall, the survey found that those under age 35 were much more open to their Ossi counterparts, while those over 55 weren't. More than 35 percent of western Germans under the age of 35 thought there was more to be learned from their eastern neighbours, while only 19 percent of those over the age of 55 felt the same way.

Forsa surveyed 1,000 people across the country on behalf of the Berlin strategic institute Diffferent.