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**Ralph P** · 05-06-2005, 07:47 PM

Hello David...The DDR para did not have a cufftitle and I hope the link below assists in your other question about their jump badges.http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ad.php?t=65182

**David F** · 05-09-2005, 06:02 AM

Thanks Ralph,That makes things a bit clearer.

Now to start hunting for those badges

David F

**torstenbel** · 05-09-2005, 06:22 AM

I thought I had read somewhere that there was a different type of nva para pin instituted in 1986?? Is that true and what did it look like? Does someone have an overview of the entire range of these pins being issued from start to finish? Cheers, Torsten (ebay id german.militaria).

Originally posted by Ralph Pickard

Hello David...The DDR para did not have a cufftitle and I hope the link below assists in your other question about their jump badges.http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ad.php?t=65182

**SCHUPO** · 05-21-2005, 11:18 PM

Gents,

I have a question about the Fallschrimjäger specialty patch. I have a dark collar (1st quarter of 1973 dated) white piped Cpl tunic with a Falli specialty patch on the left sleeve 3.5cm above the cuff. The patch has an embroidered grey thread parachute within a grey oval and appears to be period applied. The tunic has early white piped collar tabs, and boards and white piped cuffs. My question is would this Falli patch be correct for this time period with a white piped tunic? Is this simply a specialty/qualification patch or does it signify assignment as a paratrooper?

Thanks, George

**Mike G.** · 05-22-2005, 10:04 AM

Hello Torsten and George,

Torsten, beginning in 1960, The NVA Air Force issued two similar types of Parachute Badges that were comprised of a small gold parachute in a blue field surrounded by a silver wreath that was then centered between two expanded siliver wings. Above the parachute appeared a small "Tri-color" diamond shield with the Staatswappen inside. NOTE: The diamond insignia was inherent to the NVA Air Force. This type of badge was produced for Officers (Un-numbered) between 1960 and 1967; and for other ranks with a klassification Roman Numeral (I, II, III) between 1960 and 1863 only.

Most that you see of this type are a special anniversay reproduction version that appeared in 1989. Mine are of this type. The originals are very rare and sell/cost accordingly.

In 1967, a new badge was created. The original new version had the Tri-color diamond Staatswappen associated with the Air Force. However, while an unknown quantity of these were produced as samples, they were never actually issued. Instead, the type depicted in Ralph's "Link" were produced and subsequently issued. Diamond was replaced with a circle.

In 1973 the badge underwent other very subtle changes. It looked like the type depicted in the above referenced "Link" that I posted behind Ralph's pictures.

Torsten, you commented you thought they got another new badge in 1986. In a sense, you are not wrong. In 1986, the new badge produced in 1973 was transformed into a patch, which was then added to the Fallcshirmjager Dienst and Parade Berets. It was worn to the right side of the Cockade.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

George,

During my conversations with Dag, it was pretty much agreed that the Specialty patches were worn for different reasons between the Dark Collar era and the Open Collar era.

During the Dark Collar era for instance, it was not uncommon for a Soldier in the engineers or a Panzer Unit working in that field, to wear an engineer or Panzer specialty patch. In other words, Engineers wore engineer patches and Tankers wore Panzer patches.

However, this was not common practice during the open collar era. Usually, it was done when a soldier was assigned to a unit outside of his actual branch, to show what he was. For example, an engineer attached to a Panzer Unit during the open collar era, was required to wear shoulder boards and collar insignia colored pink. So an engineer patch would be worn on the left sleeve to denote the soldier was an engineer, and not a Tanker.

The above practice was how it was enforced, as explained to me by Dag.

*** Now, to the question of the Fallschirmjager patch on the sleeve of the Dark Collar Tunic. ***

First.....the patch:

Three versions of the patch were issued, and they fall within specified time periods. So the patch firstly should coincide with the date of the Tunic. Here are the types and years worn:

1957 to 1965 Parachute with five Cords.

1965 to 1968 Parachute with four Cords.

1968 to 1986 Parachute with seven Cords.

Note: The Fallschirmjager switched to Open Collar in 1969. So conceivably, there could be some overlap between the 5 Cord Parachute and 7 Cord Parachute patches on Open Collar Tunics.

Here are my observations:

a). Falli didn't wear Dark Collar in 73.

b). Dark Collar by other other than Falli were still worn through 73 (and even up to 79 dependant upon circumstances).

c). The Specialty branch insignia in 73 would have been worn by soldiers working in or with a unit that was the same or similar to their actual career specialty.

Observation: Collar piping and Cuff piping in 73 was white for all branches. Collar insignia and and shoulder boards were still piped according to type of unit (Branch of Service).

So going by what I learned from Dag,

Conclusion: Given that the Collar Insignia and the Shoulder Boards are piped in white, and the Tunic is Dark Collar, I would surmise that the patch is most probably not correct for that Tunic. Dark Collar era, they wore patches that coincided with both their occupation specialty and the type of unit they were in. In other words for Dark Collar era, an Engineer assigned to an Engineer Unit wore the Engineer Specialty patch.

Again, for clarification, Open Collar era they didn't were the Specialty Patch unless they were assigned to Unit that was outside of their Occupation Specialty. So for Open Collar era, an Engineer attached to a Mechanized Infantry Unit presumably would or could wear the Engineer Specialty Patch. If assigned to an Engineer Unit, he didn't wear the Patch, because it was redundant.

Hope this helps?

**SCHUPO** · 05-23-2005, 10:30 AM

Michael,

Thank you for the information. The 1973 dated tunic has white piped early shoulder boards (woolstoff backing and straps instead of lightweight synthetic material) and machine sewn collar tabs with white piping stripes in the litzen which matches the white cuff piping. The Falli cuff insignia does seem to be of the proper period since it has seven shroud lines (cords) so I will leave it on the tunic. I felt the patch might be proper because this tunic has been worn and has had the properly machine sewn cuff bars removed during time of use (perhaps to wear as walking out dress?) but I also felt it might be incorrect, which is why I asked the question. As I understand your answer, it could be proper if the Soldat was simply parachute qualilfied but assigned outside of his actual branch. Am I correct to assume the Dienstlauftbahnabzeichen simply indicated an earned specialty and not necessarily a duty assignment?

George

**Mike G.** · 05-23-2005, 10:47 AM

Schupo,

In response to your question:

Quote: Am I correct to assume the Dienstlauftbahnabzeichen simply indicated an earned specialty and not necessarily a duty assignment? End Quote.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

As I was made to understand it, during the Dark Collar era, the patches were specific to both occupational specialty and duty assignment. It was redundant, but it was common practice.

Open Collar era they were specific to actual occupation specialty, but worn only when the soldier was assigned to a unit outside of his occupation specialty. Hence, the former Redundancy was done away with.

I'm not sure what a guy in the Mechanized Infantry would be doing with a Fallschirmjager patch on the left sleeve?

I'm not saying it is for sure incorrect. To be fair and honest, even after talking at length with Dag on this subject, I am still somewhat confused.

What I did come away with from Dag that was very clear, is that the wearing of these patches was a very common practice during the Dark Collar era, and wearing of these patches during the Open Collar era was not a common practice. While regulation apparently permitted it, for some reason it was not enforced and according to Dag, it was common practice by the soldiers not to sew them on.

Schupo, I went back and re-edited some of what I had earlier posted, for clarification purposes. I'm still not sure it is real clear.

Here is where I'm a bit stumped. In 73, Fallschirmjager Soldiers would already be wearing Open Collar Tunics. The Tunic you describe is Dark Collar and has white Collar Tabs and Shoulder Boards piped in white. Presumably it is for a Mechanized Infantry Soldier. But there is a "Transition" stage here between the other units and that of the FJ. One was still wearing Dark Collar, while the other (FJ) were already wearing Open Collar. So there is kind of a "Monkey Wrench" in this scenario.

First, would a FJ Soldier be assigned/attached to a Mechanized Infantry Unit? And if there were circumstances in 73 that dictate a FJ Soldier could be or would be attached to a Mechanized Infantry Unit, would the FJ Soldier wear the Dark Collar Tunic with white collar insignia and piped shoulder boards, instead of their own Open Collar Tunic with the Orange Collar Insignia and piped Shoulder Boards? If the answer is yes, then perhaps this scenario would account for the presence of the patch? Except according to what I understood from Dag, these patches were worn on Dark Collar Tunics by Soldiers working in their respective occupational specialty, and also assigned to a Unit that also coincided with their occupational specialty.

So Schupo, if I do this, I hope you don't mind:

Maybe one of our former NVA colleagues can further comment on it.

Come to think of it, where is Dag?

Anyone seen or heard from him lately?

His NVA NCO knowledge is sorely missed on this Forum.

Until a more definitive answer/response from one of the Former NVA Members is received, I would offer that if everything seems right to you relevant wear and sewing on this particular Tunic, leave as is.

**John F.** · 05-23-2005, 11:22 AM

Here is a 1971 open collar FJ NCO Tunic. I picked this up in 1991 on a trip to DE. The only thing added to this tunic were the awards and shoulder boards. I have not a clue if it is legit but, The FJ speciality patch and inverted chevrons are machine sewn but not sewn through the lining of the sleeves.

Attached Files

DDR FJ Uniform.JPG (40.2 KB, 460 views)

**Mike G.** · 05-23-2005, 11:42 AM

Hi John,

And I totally agree and conur with what it is you are inferring. If the Fallschirmjager Specialty patches were not meant for wear on their respective Tunics, then for whom were they meant?

In a nut shell, this is how it was explained to me by Dag:

1956 to 1974 (Dark Collar Era):
Introduced in 1957.
The wearing of Specialty Patches was common practice.
The wearer wore a Specialty Patch of his particular Specialty, even when assigned to a Unit also of his Specialty.

1975 to 1989 (Open Collar Era):
The regulation was still the same. It was unchanged from before.
But, the wearing of Specialty Patches was not commonly practiced and was not enforced. This doesn't mean there weren't soldiers that didn't wear them. It was however according to Dag, not common practice.

John, this would support your FJ Tunic with the Specialty Patch. The regulation for wearing of these was the same during Open Collar era as it was for the Dark Collar era.

Onward: According to Dag, during the Open Collar era, most soldiers only sewed Specialty Patches on their Tunics when they were assigned to a Unit outside of their Specialty. This was more common.

But for sure, the requlation, being that it was unchanged, would support an FJ Patch on an Open Collar FJ Tunic. Given that the Patch on your Tunic is machine sewn, and not through the lining, I would surmise this was done for the FJ by his respective quartermaster upon it being issued to him.

I have one Dark Collar and three Open Collar FJ Tunics. None have a Specialty Patch.

I wish Dag would revisit the matter of these Specialty Patches, as for sure the 'How', 'When', and 'Where' wearing of them still seems to remain a very confusing subject.

By the way John,

That is one "Smart" looking open collar FJ Tunic.

**SCHUPO** · 05-23-2005, 02:30 PM

Thank you John and Michael. Michael, I have sent you a couple of photos that will perhaps be more helpful than my verbal descriptions.

**paul heath** · 05-23-2005, 09:28 PM

Members,

Now to add to the mix... I have a NCO Falli tunic with the 7 point Speciality patch and long service chevron (both not sewn thru the lining).

So far all good and fine?

But...It has the small (the super small) size label on the collar ( late 60s very early 70s), it is PLAIN collar NOT dark, and it is officer quality tunic, high collar buttoning at the neck with 5 buttons.

Lastly, I do not have a date for marking b/c it was dry cleaned out. The size is G 52 b/c there is a faint mark on the small collar tab.

So, my tunic looks like John's post on the face of the photo ( minus a medal adjustment) execpt the collar is buttoned, and patches are not sewn through the lining.

I believe that this was a correct transitional tunic.

Lastly, is the inferrence that a regular mot-schutzen (et al) tunic can add in good faith a para/or any specialization patch while they where there on TDY?

I have been told that the only way the SAK members could be id'ed was by the para jump badge... Then again, this was from a late member (88-89).

Paul Heath

**Mike G.** · 05-23-2005, 11:48 PM

Hi all,

The problem I was trying to get across regarding the post by SCHUPO, is that the Tunic is a). Dark Collar and b). not a FJ Tunic.

While in the Open Collar era, LSK (NVA Land Troops) did wear Insignia of the Unit to which they were assigned, it would not make sense that a soldier temporarily detached from the Navy, Air Force or Airborne, and re-attached to the LSK Land Forces, would wear the LSK Unit Insignia to which they were attached. Presumably, they would continue to wear their own branch of service insignia.

That was why I was having difficulty comprehending how a FJ patch could end up on the left sleeve of a 73 dated Dark Collar Mech Infantry Tunic. I just couldn't, in my head, work out the methodology by which this could be acceptable.

As it turns out, the photos sent to me by George emphatically resolve the issue. It turns out the patch is one of the type reserved by the FJ for wear by Officers and Warrant Officers. Given the Mech Infantry Tunic in question is of the Enlisted Wooly type, the patch definitely is wrong for the Tunic, regardless of color of Unit Insignia.

Attached Files

Falli-1.jpg (78.5 KB, 415 views)

**Mike G.** · 05-23-2005, 11:51 PM

Closeup of the FJ Specialty Patch. This type was used between 1968 and 1986, and was specific to FJ Officers and Warrant Officers.

So, the patch does not belong to the Tunic, which is an EM Tunic.

Attached Files

Falli-2.jpg (108.0 KB, 449 views)

**Mike G.** · 05-23-2005, 11:55 PM

Paul,

The Fallschirmjager switched to Open Collar in 1969. So I'm sure your Tunic is fine.

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