BundesLuftwaffe early Off. overseas

[SprogCollector]

Found this similarly configured, private purchase cap online. Of interest is the sewn-on cockade. Undated but produced by Friedrich SCHWEITZER of KOBLENZ a. RHEIN. The company appears active at least into 1980/81. Whether this is a Bundeswehr cap? Unknown.

http://magento.p147097.mittwaldserve...offiziere.html

At this point, I'm still skeptical on whether the schiffchen was introduced into Heer/Luftwaffe service prior to 1957.

[speedytop]

Hi,

now I have to correct myself!

It was a litle bit difficult, to find the truth.


1st source, Uniform regulations from 23. Juli 1955:
"Artikel 3
...
II. Allgemeine Abzeichen:
...
2. An der Feldmütze und an der Schiffchenmütze fällt das Eichenlaub weg..."

The "Schiffchenmütze" is not specified for Heer or Luftwaffe.

The uniform is "slate gray", the cockade and the service badges are in metal.


2nd source, the official pictures of the new uniforms of all services at the same time, mid-1955. There are no Schiffchenmützen/Schiffchen to be seen.


3rd source, the magazine "Der deutsche Soldat Der Frontsoldat erzählt", No. 5/1956, from April 1956:

On the front pages are some pictures from officers of the Luftwaffe.
Schirmmütze and Dienstmütze are visible with metal cockades and badges.
But on three pictures you an see the Schiffchen. On two pictures are closeup views of the Schiffchen.
They have the silver piping and a woven cockade! And it could be an olive cockade, because those were used on the olive Arbeitsmütze.




4th source, one of the official uniform pictures, used for education purposes:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...7&postcount=17

And a better picture of the "Schiffchen, grau":



The date February is wrong, based on other pictures in the brochure it should be after July 1956.
There is no piping and no woven cockade! The shown badges are metal badges.
I think, that this version never existed, only on the paper.


5th source, the first catalogue of the "Vorl. Kleiderkasse für die Bundeswehr (KKB), from October 1957 (Preisliste Nr. 1):

There are Schiffchen only offered for the Luftwaffe (blaugrau), for generals and officers; based on the prices with embroidered cockades.


6th source, Wehrdienstkalender 1957, from January 1957:

In the listing about the numbers of issues is a "Schiffchen, grau", with the limitation "beim Heer vorläufig nur Pz-Besatzungen und Heeresflieger".
> for the Luftwaffe and limitated for defined Heer soldiers.


7th source, Taschenbuch für Wehrfragen 1959, from January 1959:

In the listing about the numbers of issues is a "Schiffchen" Luftwaffe blau and Heer grau, with the limitation "beim Heer vorläufig nur Pz-Besatzungen und Heeresflieger".
> for the Luftwaffe and limitated for defined Heer soldiers.


8th source, Uniform-Fibel from December 1959:

In the listing about the numbers of issues is a "Schiffchen", with the limitation "nur Luftwaffe, Flußpioniere und Heeresflieger".
> for the Luftwaffe and limitated for defined Heer soldiers.


Result: The Schiffchen in this thread and the linked Schiffchen could be original Luftwaffen-Schiffchen.

Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Hi Uwe,
Interesting information and certainly worthy of future research.

Here are my concerns:
The original uniform regulations (Your 1st source) do not list a schiffchen. To me this is the most definitive information on what uniforms were available at the beginning.

If the schiffchen was present in 1955, there should be at least some photos of them in use. In the case of the Heer or Luftwaffe, there is no documentation of a schiffchen and no photographic evidence (to date) that shows a schiffchen in wear in 1955. I would argue there were very likely no schiffchen in use before 1957. I use 1957 because this is the earliest known date I've been able to assign to a photo.

The photo in your 3rd source is black and white and perhaps we are assuming this is a grey officer cap. I suggest this could equally be an enlisted luftwaffe cap with yellow piping. There is nothing to suggest the rank of the person shown. Being so close to the introduction of the "new" 4-pocket uniforms, are we just seeing an early preview of a blue-grey cap?

I go back to my original concerns. If these caps were in use in 1955, where are they in the period photos?

From your listed sources, it would appear there was no schiffchen until 1956 and that cap uses a badging arrangement not seen on the cap in the original post for this discussion.

The label information is also very different from what I would expect on a Bundeswehr item.

I think period photos are the only way to answer this question definitively and so far I've not found any to support a schiffchen before 1957.

[SprogCollector]

I tried to find an electronic version of "Der deutsche Soldat Der Frontsoldat erzählt". I think this is probably the Mai 1956 edition?

[STUG III]

Bundes Luftwaffe/Wehr

Geez fellas, I didn't mean to create such a pissing contest. The cap is not a fake, and to my limited knowledge I can't imagine why some one would fake one to begin with. It's an original period cap and label. It is slate grey color, and not Luftwaffe blue, after taking outside in the sunlight that's the color.
I don't know what else to say, except I'm almost sorry I posted it!

[SprogCollector]

Don't be sorry you posted!!! The cap is a great item to debate. Could prove to be original. Just because I'm not convinced yet doesn't mean anything -- just one person's opinion.

I prefer items to prove their authenticity. In this case, we clearly have a cap made in late 1955 but nothing to support that the cap existed as an item of issue. According to Uwe's sources, a 1956 sidecap should have the cockade up high on the front with metal wing below. This could be artistic license -- perhaps the cockade should be below but the wing is still present? The drawing of the sidecap is on the 1957 drawing series "Zeitgenössische Darnstellung der Anzugordnung". It does not appear in the 1956 series.

To me, the most glaring fact remains the lack of photos documenting the existence of caps in very early Bundeswehr use. Was the sidecap only prescribed for wear with flying clothing -- thereby explaining it's absence in most photos? If so, wouldn't it still be listed somewhere?

To get back to discussion, I started looking specifically at early Luftwaffe photos.
I'm unsure of the date on this photo but the cap appears to have an embroidered wing sewn above the bullion cockade. I'm not sure when this badging configuration was used.


This one is probably an early Luftwaffe cap -- unfortunately undated -- no label. Note the badging configuration which matches the 1957 drawing. Why would a 1955 example have an embroidered cockade placed low on the front with no wing present? Or is this photo a badged-up, undated cap made to resemble the drawing?

[SprogCollector]

I've spent some time looking at labels on early garments and I think I'm over my initial concerns with the label on the cap. To be fair, I was probably the only one with concerns about it. The layout is different but the basic contract info is there.

The woven cockade and its placement is confusing. It appears factory applied. Assuming it's correct, we have several badging changes within a very short timeframe:
- woven, sewn-on cockade low on the cap with no wing above (original cap of this thread) -- very late 1955
- metal cockade set high on the cap with metal wing below (per the Feb-1956 drawing)
- woven cockade set low on the cap with no wing (photo from Der Soldat magazine, May 1956)
- woven cockade set low on cap with woven wing sewn above (Hartmann photo)

I'm giving serious consideration that the schiffchen was perhaps classed as some type of limited issue cap for use with flight duties uniform -- explaining why it is not seen very often? Or possibly a lag between production and availability for issue -- explaining why the caps aren't seen much before 1957?

Was there a badging distinction between officer and enlisted caps this early? The M-56 would suggest common badging with the silver piping on officer caps being the only difference. Cockade high with wing below is common to both caps. Metal cockade appears to be regulation for these early caps. How do we reconcile the differences?






Schirmmütze is dated 1955 on the sweatband; the M-56 is dated March 1956; the schiffchen has no label/date.

photo credit: Pz.Aufkl.Btl.12 at www.multi-board.com

[Asbjoern]

The caps with the metal insignia might be of private purchase... custo made by a tailor. Over the years I´ve seen several strange looking hats coming from this source.

But tha voven cockade on an officers cap is no so exotic ... if you carefull ylook through this Bundeswehr educational movie released in 1957 (so most possible filmed earlyer) you can see the comader of the M41 wearing an overseas cap with meltallic piping and a textile cockade...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFFraPZYTWc

Jens

[speedytop]

Hi STUG III,

why is it "a pissing contest"?

The first months in a new Army can be very confusing, and it is really hard, to find correct sources about this first time.

I learned something new!


Hi SprogCollector,

there are some wrong conclusions.

"The original uniform regulations (Your 1st source) do not list a schiffchen."

That is not correct, the "Schiffchenmütze" is, shortened, the Schiffchen.
In July 1955!

"I suggest this could equally be an enlisted luftwaffe cap with yellow piping."

That is not correct. When I write "silver piping", I mean silver piping. The yellow piping came several years later.
Your picture show one of the two pages with Luftwaffen officers (pilots), wearing the Schiffchen.

"The drawing of the sidecap is on the 1957 drawing series "Zeitgenössische Darstellung der Anzugordnung". It does not appear in the 1956 series."

That is not correct. You can find the sidecap (Schiffchen, grau; see the picture in my post) in several publications in 1956.

"Or is this photo a badged-up, undated cap made to resemble the drawing?"

In the source is written: "Habe es zusammen mit anderen Musterstücken aus einer Fabrikauflösung bekommen." > Got it together with other specimen from the reversal of a factory.
Specimen seems for me to be correct.


Hi Jens,

it is interesting, that you can see here in the movie not only officers with the Schiffchen.
See my Post, 6th source, from January 1957, "... beim Heer vorläufig [für] Pz-Besatzungen" > preliminary for tank crews.

Uwe

[SprogCollector]

Hi Jens,
I believe the information supplied by Uwe is correct regarding the cap badges on the early Luftwaffe caps.

For the Heer schiffchen in the video, are we seeing schiefergrau caps or caps in the grey color that came from the 1957 pattern uniforms?

The other aspect of this is how many people were in the Luftwaffe in 1955-56? If the first 50 volunteers arrived in January 1956 and the first conscripts some months later, how many total people are involved so early into a newly formed military?

I would still like to know if the schiffchen was restricted to aircrew? Obviously, the cap existed in 1956 (photos now prove it) but the few seen are in an aircraft setting. Also curious is that the badging in the Feb 56 drawing is not the badging seen in the photos just a month or so later. So which badging came first -- metal cockade and wing and then woven cockade alone? Or the reverse? Or both? Clearly the version with the metal cockade and wing existed as well.

[SprogCollector]

Just noticed this -- perhaps others did all along? In the drawing with the schiffchen, is the cap illustrated an enlisted mans cap? The M-56 caps are illustrated to show Heer/Luftwaffe schiefergrau caps with gold, silver, and no piping to represent the various ranks. In the case of the schiffchen, only an unpiped version is shown.

Do we potentially have officer caps with silver piping and woven cockade since the beginning while the enlisted/NCO ranks wore a cap without piping and with metal badging also from the beginning? If true, this neatly accounts for the two different badging styles.

Uwe:
This information had me confused:
"The "Schiffchenmütze" is not specified for Heer or Luftwaffe."
I interpreted this to mean there wasn't a schiffchen available for either Heer or Luftwaffe. Can you clarify what this means? This question comes from your statements earlier


1st source, Uniform regulations from 23. Juli 1955:
"Artikel 3
...
II. Allgemeine Abzeichen:
...
2. An der Feldmütze und an der Schiffchenmütze fällt das Eichenlaub weg..."

The "Schiffchenmütze" is not specified for Heer or Luftwaffe.

The uniform is "slate gray", the cockade and the service badges are in metal.

[speedytop]

It seems, that this part is meant for Heer and Luftwaffe.
But is not clear to see in the official pictures at that time.

You can see the difference in the linked picture.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...7&postcount=17

On the left side above the three "Schirmmützen, grau", all the three headgears with the oak leaves, added are the service emblems for Heer (swords) or Luftwaffe (wing).
On all the other head gears is only the service emblem, without the oak leaves.
That is meant with: "An der Feldmütze und an der Schiffchenmütze fällt das Eichenlaub weg".
With "Feldmütze" is hear meant the "Dienstmütze, grau" and the "Arbeitsmütze, oliv".

The "Dienstmütze, grau" and the "Arbeitsmütze, oliv" are shown for both, Heer and Luftwaffe.

The "Schiffchen, grau" (Schiffchenmütze) is shown only for the Luftwaffe.

If the use of the Schiffchen really was meant only for the Luftwaffe, it had been written in the regulations.
But it was mainly meant for the Luftwaffe, as we can find it also in the later listings about the number of issues (see my sources 6 and 7).

Another question is, why the 1st price list of the KKB (source 5) did not offer a Schiffchen for the officers of the tank crews and the Army light aviation (Heeresflieger) crews.

Uwe

PS: It is sometimes really hard for me, to express/transform relatively clear German regulations in understandable English

[SprogCollector]

Thanks. That helps.

My mistake. I saw the part about the wreath but ignored it when I saw "schiffchen not specified for Heer or Luftwaffe". I understood this to mean no schiffchen was used instead of realizing it was in reference to the abzeichen for the schiffchen.

[SprogCollector]

While searching for more photos of the schiffchen, I found this video on Youtube. It appears to be an early documentary for the formation of the Bundeswehr. The Luftwaffe section starts at 30 minutes in.

The officer schiffchen can be seen in the flightline parts of the video. Interesting to me was a small section at 32 minutes in. One officer not flying walks to the aircraft with the 2-man crew. The officer not flying is wearing his M-56 dienstmütze. The pilot is wearing a schirmmütze and the backseater is wearing the officer schiffchen. While not clear, his cap appears to be using the same sewn-on woven cockade.

I've not found any video or photos showing enlisted crewmembers yet. I'm curious to see if their caps have the metal cockade and wing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOOp-4dEmc

Other interesting observations:
- at ~35 minutes, you can see an enlisted sailor aboard a small ship wearing a Marine schiffchen with metal cockade.
- at 36 minutes , there is a section on the Panzerlehrbrigade. All panzer crews in this part of the video are wearing the M-56 cap in their tanks. No schiffchen seen yet.