Beretta mod38/49 (Mp1) and early BW weapons

[Martin Gruner]

I have some questions about the Mp1.

I once read that the Mp1 also was in use by the Bundeswehr. Is this true and is there any photo evidence?

The other question is:
How did the BGS (or BW) carry the magazines?
I only know of Magazines with the capacity of 20 or 40 rounds. But the only magazine pouches I know that was used by the BGS are these green triple pouches that look similar to the Mp40 pouches.
But these are afaik only for MPL and Mp5 ... I have tried to put my Mp5 mags in one of these and they fit perfectly.
So a Mp1 40 rounds will be too long for these pouches. And the 20 rounds are too short.

I haven't ever noticed any pictures where one can see any SMG pouches from BGS personal. All the times I remember when a photo shows a BGS man with a Mp1 the picture was taken from his back.


This is another deactivated gun I once owned.
Look at the Letters above the triggers!
"E" = Einzelfeuer (single shot)
"D" = Dauerfeuer (fully automatic)

[Collectinsteve]

The BW's initial allotment of small arms were, I'm pretty sure, all US types. Off the top of my head:

M1A1 Carbine (or perhaps M1A2, not sure!)
M1 Garand
M1919A6 LMG

I don't think they used the BAR or Thompson. I'm not sure what pistols they used, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the US Colt 1911. IIRC they were using rebranded P-38s from the very start.

Steve

[Gordon Craig]

Steve,

They used some PO8s as well as P38s. I don't think they used the PP. That seems to have been used by Polizei only.

Regards,

Gordon

[Guardian 5]

Gordon - The first BGS trooper in the file has an MP 1. The picture is from a back copy of "Vizier".

It's hard to tell if he's wearing an ammo pouch or a holster. I'll try and dig out the magazine and see if the original picture is any clearer.

Steve - See below for a blurb on U.S. small arms supplied to the Bundeswehr under the Mutual Defense Assistance Program (MDAP). The passage is based on information taken from a pamphlet titled "USAREUR Training Assistance to the West German Army" compiled by the Headquarters, U.S. Army Europe Historical Division and Moderne Handwaffen der Bundeswehr:

Pistols and Submachine Guns. Bundeswehr infantrymen were issued Colt.45 M1911 and M1911A pistols through the MDAP. Taken into Bundeswehr service as the P51 and P52, they were also known as the “Colt government model.” They were unpopular due to perceived excess weight (the M1911 comes in at just under 3 pounds) and had to fight against the longstanding German tradition of using 9mm handguns like the P.08 “Luger” and P38 of World War II fame. The M1911 was carried in a copy of the G.I. holster manufactured in natural brown leather (less the “U.S.” insignia embossed on the flap). The
M1911 was not missed at all when replaced with the P1, a post-war version of the P38 in 1958. The Thompson M1A1 Submachine gun was “accepted without reservations by the Bundeswehr” and would serve well until replaced by the equally popular Uzi in 1959. German airborne troops (Fallschirmjäger) pictured as they took part in assault boat training during the late 1950s were armed with British Sterling sub-machine guns. It’s currently unknown whether these were borrowed from a neighboring BOAR unit or were part of the British consignment of weapons along with the Mk. IV Rifle.

All the best - TJ

[hoover]

Just some numbers:
The former BGS units transferred to the Bundeswehr took a lot of weapons with them:

9.000 98k
740 MP1
900 MG42
and some Astra 600/43 and Sig P210-4

And:
13.378 M1911A1
8.188 M1A1 SMG
45.494 M1 Garand
1.260 M1C and D Garand
35.441 M1 Carbine (and some M3)
1.334 BAR
2.298 M1919A6
2.899 .50 M2
4.743 Bazooka M20A1

[Gordon Craig]

TJ,

Thanks for the interesting picture. I didn't do a good job of explaining what I meant in my last post. What I meant to say was that the BGS used ex wehrmacht PO8s and P38s at first. They retired both pieces as soon as they could get adequate numbers of the P1. The guy in the front of your picture could be wearing the MG gunners pouch on hos right side from the shape of it.

Regards,


Gordon

Gordon - The first BGS trooper in the file has an MP 1. The picture is from a back copy of "Vizier".

It's hard to tell if he's wearing an ammo pouch or a holster. I'll try and dig out the magazine and see if the original picture is any clearer.

Steve - See below for a blurb on U.S. small arms supplied to the Bundeswehr under the Mutual Defense Assistance Program (MDAP). The passage is based on information taken from a pamphlet titled "USAREUR Training Assistance to the West German Army" compiled by the Headquarters, U.S. Army Europe Historical Division and Moderne Handwaffen der Bundeswehr:

Pistols and Submachine Guns. Bundeswehr infantrymen were issued Colt.45 M1911 and M1911A pistols through the MDAP. Taken into Bundeswehr service as the P51 and P52, they were also known as the “Colt government model.” They were unpopular due to perceived excess weight (the M1911 comes in at just under 3 pounds) and had to fight against the longstanding German tradition of using 9mm handguns like the P.08 “Luger” and P38 of World War II fame. The M1911 was carried in a copy of the G.I. holster manufactured in natural brown leather (less the “U.S.” insignia embossed on the flap). The
M1911 was not missed at all when replaced with the P1, a post-war version of the P38 in 1958. The Thompson M1A1 Submachine gun was “accepted without reservations by the Bundeswehr” and would serve well until replaced by the equally popular Uzi in 1959. German airborne troops (Fallschirmjäger) pictured as they took part in assault boat training during the late 1950s were armed with British Sterling sub-machine guns. It’s currently unknown whether these were borrowed from a neighboring BOAR unit or were part of the British consignment of weapons along with the Mk. IV Rifle.

All the best - TJ

[Collectinsteve]

Thanks guys!! Good info to have.

I suppose the unpopular weight of the 1911 is why I haven't seen any pictures of early BW soldiers carrying it? I'm sure such pictures exist, of course, but I've seen hundreds and can't recall ever seeing even one 1911. In fact, I'm trying to remember seeing any pictures with a Thompson. Does anybody have a picture they could share here? What do the magazine pouches look like?

Steve

[Guardian 5]

Martin - I'm sorry to get so far off the subject (Don't worry Steve, I found a BW .45 pic).

Here are some views of the BGS sub-machinegun ammo pouch in my collection.

Unfortunately, all of the BGS MP1 pictures I have are rear views as well. I have one side view, but its tough to confirm if the trooper is wearing an ammo pouch.

The only mark on the pouch below is "THW". This manufacturer remains unidentified.

All the best - TJ

I have some questions about the Mp1.

I once read that the Mp1 also was in use by the Bundeswehr. Is this true and is there any photo evidence?

The other question is:
How did the BGS (or BW) carry the magazines?
I only know of Magazines with the capacity of 20 or 40 rounds. But the only magazine pouches I know that was used by the BGS are these green triple pouches that look similar to the Mp40 pouches.
But these are afaik only for MPL and Mp5 ... I have tried to put my Mp5 mags in one of these and they fit perfectly.
So a Mp1 40 rounds will be too long for these pouches. And the 20 rounds are too short.

I haven't ever noticed any pictures where one can see any SMG pouches from BGS personal. All the times I remember when a photo shows a BGS man with a Mp1 the picture was taken from his back.


This is another deactivated gun I once owned.
Look at the Letters above the triggers!
"E" = Einzelfeuer (single shot)
"D" = Dauerfeuer (fully automatic)

[Guardian 5]

Here's another BGS SMG pouch; I think it belongs to Jens.

[Guardian 5]

Martin - See the below link for the "Beim Alten BGS" website.

This is the BEST site for looks at BGS fieldgear in the period 1951 - 1971.

In the link below you will see several views of what I believe to be MP1 ammo pouches as worn by the unit commander.

Be warned however, once you start browsing through this awesome site you won't want to leave.

All the best - TJ

http://www.beim-alten-bgs.de/Zu_den_...bstuebung.html

[Guardian 5]

Steve - Here's a picture of some Fallschirmjaeger equipped with .45s.

Like you however, I've never seen a picture of the Thompson in BW service but I know that they were issued with it and I know that they liked it.

On one of the issues of the book "Gelboliv" a series which looks at the early BW, there is a picture of a Thompson on the cover, but I don't know if there are any pictures of the weapon in BW use inside.

Could anyone with a copy of "Gelboliv" take a look for us? Of course, if you happen to have pictures from other sources, feel free to share them.

All the best - TJ

[hoover]

On one of the issues of the book "Gelboliv" a series which looks at the early BW, there is a picture of a Thompson on the cover, but I don't know if there are any pictures of the weapon in BW use inside.

Here is one...

The M1A1 belong to the Tanks, 2 each US tank (M41, M47, M74, but no M48 (I don´t know why).

And the Navy got the M1A1 as SMG during the first months.

Edit: last weekend I talked to some Bw-Veterans which served 1956/57. They got brown and black M1911-holsters, some of the black without a US-stamping. Maybe there were German produced ones?

One of them was a sniper, he used an M1D Garand and carried the ammo clips in the breast pockets of the camo suit. He also got a M1911 in a brown holster from 1945, and he said that he never got spare magazines for it.

Next week I will talk to a 1956 M47 commander. He was one of the very first soldiers who were trained by the US in january 1956.

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

A very interesting topic. If I understand what is being said here, I could build a mannequin wearing a 56/57 cammo uniform and also wearing a black M1911 holster with a US stap on it? If so, I musst take my black M1911 US stamped holster out of the "for sale" bin and keep it for future reference.

Regards,

Gordon

[hoover]

I could build a mannequin wearing a 56/57 cammo uniform and also wearing a black M1911 holster with a US stap on it?

Yes, brown or black with US stamps were not uncommon.

[Asbjoern]

Just some numbers:
The former BGS units transferred to the Bundeswehr took a lot of weapons with them:

9.000 98k
740 MP1
900 MG42
and some Astra 600/43 and Sig P210-4

And:
13.378 M1911A1
8.188 M1A1 SMG
45.494 M1 Garand
1.260 M1C and D Garand
35.441 M1 Carbine (and some M3)
1.334 BAR
2.298 M1919A6
2.899 .50 M2
4.743 Bazooka M20A1

....and don`forget the "Canadian Rifle" ! Canadian made Enfield (Mk IV if I remember correct) rifles were also in use in the first years! If to ask around in the family, maybe I can get some pictoral evidence (yes, there is BW stuff around in the family that I did not grab yet ...)

Jens